These two going at is like a reoccurring nightmare. My God where do they find the time? And what a waste of time. Your Ego’s are ugly guys.

Someone pop smoke when the fight ends so we can talk about inventory levels.

That seems like fantasy land to me, an impractical idealistic dream with several practical issues.

The phase 1-4 are due every 3 years for me, phase 1-5 every 6 years, so the timing of the prepurchase inspection is going to likely waste considerable time on the existing inspection validity.

The plane will be down weeks for these inspections. That's an incredible burden to the seller, particularly if the shop is far from the seller. Your sale won't close for that entire time.

The buyer is choosing the shop, so they have to pay for the inspection. These inspections are not cheap.

If the buyer walks, then the next buyer wants to do the inspection over again as part of their prepurchase? That's ridiculous.

Inspections by themselves cause wear and tear on the airplane. This is why the LUMP is so valuable because it reduces that wear.

If my plane is for sale and a buyer requires it be put through a phase 1-4 or 1-5, my terms would be:

1. A hefty non refundable deposit to pay for the loss of use during the inspection down time, the economic inefficiency of fixing squawks at the buyer's chosen shop, and to compensate me for my time and expense traveling and dealing with the buyer's shop.

2. The buyer pays for the inspection, up front, in cash or equivalents, and the fee includes everything foreseeable to put the plane back into the shape it arrived. The inspection does NOT start until the shop has the money in HAND.

3. No squawks get fixed without my approval and I decide how they get fixed, including doing them at a shop of my choosing. The standard is airworthy, nothing more.

For reference, a phase 1-5 base cost at Textron is about $60K and many other shops quotes are $40-50K. For the down time, my time and expense, and a reasonable actual deposit, the buyer could be risking $100K. Are your customers comfortable with that?

If I have two buyers, one who wants to do the entire phase 1-5 at their shop and another who doesn't, guess which buyer I'm going to work with first.

I can offer a compromise. If my inspections are close to being due (3 months say, certainly not 12), and the buyer allows my shop to perform the work, I'd go 50/50 on the inspection base cost and a very modest deposit. Then the plane can be inspected at my shop, I can work with my shop as I have before, the buyer gets access to the inspection results and can observe if they want to, and they risk substantially less money. My options are preserved and I end up with an inspected airplane where some of the cost was borne by the prospective buyer if they walk. Only the first buyer with a deposit gets this option, however, not doing it twice.

Another option is the prebuy survey. I bring the plane to a shop of the buyer's choosing, with a reasonable non refundable deposit to cover moving the plane, my time, expenses, and some compensation for having the plane poked at, and they can do anything they want for no more than 2 days but the plane has to be back together at the end of the second day in no worse shape than it was when it came. The shop has to target their effort to look for the serious issues (like toilet corrosion) but they don't get the rip the whole airplane apart like a phase. If the shop breaks something, the shop and/or buyer are on the hook for that.

There was no way sellers were agreeing to full phase inspections when I bought my plane in late 2020. There just wasn't any shop time out there for that even if the seller was agreeable, which I seriously doubt any were.

Mike C.

That seems like fantasy land to me, an impractical idealistic dream with several practical issues.

The phase 1-4 are due every 3 years for me, phase 1-5 every 6 years, so the timing of the prepurchase inspection is going to likely waste considerable time on the existing inspection validity.

The plane will be down weeks for these inspections. That's an incredible burden to the seller, particularly if the shop is far from the seller. Your sale won't close for that entire time.

The buyer is choosing the shop, so they have to pay for the inspection. These inspections are not cheap.

If the buyer walks, then the next buyer wants to do the inspection over again as part of their prepurchase? That's ridiculous.

Inspections by themselves cause wear and tear on the airplane. This is why the LUMP is so valuable because it reduces that wear.

If my plane is for sale and a buyer requires it be put through a phase 1-4 or 1-5, my terms would be:

1. A hefty non refundable deposit to pay for the loss of use during the inspection down time, the economic inefficiency of fixing squawks at the buyer's chosen shop, and to compensate me for my time and expense traveling and dealing with the buyer's shop.

2. The buyer pays for the inspection, up front, in cash or equivalents, and the fee includes everything foreseeable to put the plane back into the shape it arrived. The inspection does NOT start until the shop has the money in HAND.

3. No squawks get fixed without my approval and I decide how they get fixed, including doing them at a shop of my choosing. The standard is airworthy, nothing more.

For reference, a phase 1-5 base cost at Textron is about $60K and many other shops quotes are $40-50K. For the down time, my time and expense, and a reasonable actual deposit, the buyer could be risking $100K. Are your customers comfortable with that?

If I have two buyers, one who wants to do the entire phase 1-5 at their shop and another who doesn't, guess which buyer I'm going to work with first.

I can offer a compromise. If my inspections are close to being due (3 months say, certainly not 12), and the buyer allows my shop to perform the work, I'd go 50/50 on the inspection base cost and a very modest deposit. Then the plane can be inspected at my shop, I can work with my shop as I have before, the buyer gets access to the inspection results and can observe if they want to, and they risk substantially less money. My options are preserved and I end up with an inspected airplane where some of the cost was borne by the prospective buyer if they walk. Only the first buyer with a deposit gets this option, however, not doing it twice.

Another option is the prebuy survey. I bring the plane to a shop of the buyer's choosing, with a reasonable non refundable deposit to cover moving the plane, my time, expenses, and some compensation for having the plane poked at, and they can do anything they want for no more than 2 days but the plane has to be back together at the end of the second day in no worse shape than it was when it came. The shop has to target their effort to look for the serious issues (like toilet corrosion) but they don't get the rip the whole airplane apart like a phase. If the shop breaks something, the shop and/or buyer are on the hook for that.

There was no way sellers were agreeing to full phase inspections when I bought my plane in late 2020. There just wasn't any shop time out there for that even if the seller was agreeable, which I seriously doubt any were.

Mike C.

Dear Legacy Citation Buyer,

Mike isn’t wrong about selling a Legacy Citation—there are plenty of aircraft that can only be sold the way he envisions. However, I have to take the counterpoint and say you shouldn’t deviate from a standard deal.

Most sellers, especially aircraft dealers, want to avoid a Phase 1-4 inspection. As a buyer, I strongly prefer one, and for good reason. The only scenario where skipping it makes sense is if the price truly justifies the risk—but a low price alone doesn’t mean it’s worth it.

If your budget forces you to buy without a full pre-purchase inspection, including Phases 1-4, you need to set aside funds to cover those expenses over the next couple of years. If the aircraft would have had $100K in airworthiness discrepancies at pre-buy, those issues don’t disappear—you’ll just be discovering and paying for them when the next Phase 1-4 comes due.

I’ve been accused of everything—from self-promotion to incompetence, even ripping people off. The truth is, we’ve helped multiple clients who found us through Beechtalk or whom I introduced to Beechtalk, including a couple who now own Citation Vs we acquired for them. If I weren’t acting in good faith, do you think I could openly discuss these things here without past clients calling me out?

⸻

Dear Beechtalk Community,

Ten years ago, I set out to build a company that protects turbine aircraft buyers, and I’ve done that. We’ve served well over 100 clients—probably around 130 now—but what I’m most proud of is the hundreds, maybe thousands, of people we’ve helped who never even hired us. From phone calls to guidance shared here on Beechtalk, I know my words have helped many navigate this space.

I get that my posts might feel repetitive or even self-promotional at times, but remember—you likely came here looking for information, guidance, and help. I love what I do, and I love talking about it. If that ever comes across as ego-driven, I apologize—it’s just my passion and my career.

It’s funny—my biggest critics seem to be jet owners, the very folks I set out to help! But I learned a long time ago that unless you fly under the radar and stay unknown, you’re going to have critics.

Haters gonna hate, but I won’t let that distract me from my mission.

Let me give you a tip Chip: in any shape or form when someone tells you you arent good enough, calmly, quietly, walk away. You need to know you are good enough. Maybe not perfect; and you, unlike many (think SF50) make mistakes. And another tip: raise your kids the same way. In fact always tell everyone in your perspective they are good enough. And you very much did that with MC's rhetoric. Now STFU.

I think your economic plan to value your plane at zero at the end of your use is a wise one for you.

What terms would you propose as a seller?

You, as seller, would be willing to pay for a phase 1-4, at a shop of the buyer's choosing, far from your home, putting your plane down for a few weeks, such that the buyer can just walk away?

The prebuy is on the buyer, they got to put their money into it.

Mike C.

What terms would you propose as a seller?

If you were a seller, would you be willing to go through a phase 1-4 inspection at a remote shop with no deposit at all? That doesn't sound sane to me at all.

Term #1 is no compensation to the seller and no cost to the buyer if the deal goes down. It is a deposit that comes off the sale price. It is there to compensate the seller if the deal DOESNT go down, for the time, money, and lost market opportunity of dealing with a long inspection at the buyer's chosen shop. Plus there will be recovery costs to get the plane put back together and back to the seller's home base. From the buyer's point of view, it is the money they have to put at risk for their right of refusal.

If you don't have a deposit, then buyers can more easily walk from the deal leaving you with a disassembled airplane in some remote shop and that can cost you a lot. If a buyer has the right to reject the plane for non airworthy items (which, realistically, they always do even if the contract says otherwise since going to court to compel a sale is impractical), then you could have done everything properly on your side and be left holding the bag.


If you don't want to put down a deposit, then you aren't a serious buyer, so as a seller, I'm okay with you walking. Best to find that out sooner rather than later.

Mike C.

Seems like this is getting over-thought a touch.

Pre-buys the higher you go up the food chain are increasingly paperwork exercises.

• Do the records research by yourself or hire someone to do that for you.
• If an inspection is coming due soon wait for that to be done in agreement between the buyer/seller.
• During that work (or alternatively as a special one-off) have a mechanic lay eyes on anything out of the normal course of things as informed by the records research, known trouble points coming from experts in the type, your gut instincts

What am I missing?

Pre buys are a joke, I’ve done two and they were worthless on a turbine airplane. Get a borescope, check for corrosion, look at the logs and buy/pass.

It doesn’t have to be hard.

And I’ve bought 11 turbine airplanes.

Maybe it's just terminology that's throwing us off. I'd call that a reasonable pre-buy for an experienced owner, assuming your corrosion and logs inspection take more than 30 minutes each.

That's a far cry from an official phase 1-4 inspection.

Chip says phase 1-4 is standard practice in legacy Citations. I've yet to find a single case of that myself (though I am sure it does happen on occasion), and I've found several examples where it didn't happen.

Allowing a buyer to do what Mark said is my "2 days, do whatever you want but put it back together when you are done" option for the buyer. I'm totally fine with that. I'm not opposed to the phase 1-4, but if you are going to tear my plane apart that much, you need to lose a bigger deposit if you walk since that costs me more to deal with, especially if the shop the buyer wants to use is far away.

I'm also fine with doing the inspection at my shop and if the due dates are reasonably close, paying for it myself. The buyer can come and observe if they want or even bring their own mechanics to look at it opened up. I'm not trying to hide anything.

If you check corrosion, borescope the engines, and check remaining life on life limited parts, you really don't have a lot of risk left in a Citation. The planes are well understood and have a great support ecosystem.

Mike C.

Nothing.

The buyer and seller have to work out detailed terms if the process will involve an official inspection at a shop of the buyer's choosing. The seller managing a phase 1-4 at a distant shop does come with costs the buyer has to cover.

Mike C.