Your business requires maintaining this aura of expertise, so it is in your interest to push down anybody who disagrees with you.

It also requires creating this fear that not using services like your will result in disaster. The prebuy inspection is a great way to do both.

You've used the BT platform to promote your business incessantly with these behaviors. I am grateful that all other BT sponsors do not act to the same level of self promotion that you do. It would ruin BT if they all did what you are doing.


The legal definition you provided says material damage has to be something not in the aircraft records.

The repair was in the aircraft records. Therefore it is not required to be disclosed by any other means since it isn't material damage per the contract language. Indeed, the aircraft records themselves disclose it fully.

Your argument would not stand up in court based on the contract language.


That is true based on the contract language. Material damage does not include anything disclosed in the aircraft records. Your contract says that explicitly.

Mike C.

You guys will never solve this.

Chip is a buyer agent only and knows how to work over sellers. He does not represent sellers because he knows how easily they are taken advantage of by buyer reps like himself.

Mike would most likely never use a rep like Chip and neither would I. Both Mike and I bought legacy aircraft without pre buys and it still worked out well. Sure we both had issues but the fact is a pre buy does not guarantee it does not miss something.

Chip has his world and we have ours. They are at odds with each other and always will be.

You both need to move on and agree to disagree.

Mike

Mike,

You know you are wrong on this one.

I told you the contract had no bearing on the deal where we found the damage. So your entire point is moot.

I told you that almost all standard aircraft purchase agreements have such language about damage history. You didn't believe me, so I posted multiple examples.

You claimed that Stevens, a great vendor that we do a lot of business with and have a nine year long trusted relationship with, charged someone $250,000.00 for a gear leg on a Citation V, ever since you have railed about damage history and purchase agreements in an effort to cover your false claims.

I've been in aviation for 25 years, I will tell you for a fact that in a deal where someone gets taken advantage of, it is almost always the buyer.

If there's something wrong with the airplane and you require the seller to correct it, that isn't taking advantage of them that is requiring that they pay for maintenance issues that happened during the time when they operated the aircraft.

We do not represent sellers for two reasons.

1. I consider it a conflict of interest to represent buyers and sellers. Many don't and that is ok, but I do.

2. The core value of our business is finding and buying off market turbine aircraft, if we were in the sales business there's a chance any potential seller we contact might assume we didn't really represent a buyer and were just trying to work them to get a listing on the aircraft.

Me, looking for the mute button.........


*moot.........somebody find Arnie, STAT!!!!!

Me, looking for the mute button.........


*moot.........somebody find Arnie, STAT!!!!!

It was low hanging fruit.......and the temptation was too strong.

how do you know?

Mike C.,

We are waiting for you to post proof of the $250k gear leg.

If you made that up, you need to just admit it and apologize.

Ask Textron for the current price for a new 6641000-35 left hand main gear leg. Prepared to be shocked. Last time I checked it was $235K and that was a few years ago.

As Citation V and Ultra get over 10,000 landings, this life limited part will start to be a significant issue, too. The stock V runs out at 12,450 landings, Ultra and V with gross weight increase run out at 11,425 landings. As a chapter 4 life limited part, there's no grace period or extension possible, and a pair of new ones are obscenely expensive.

I have 3535 landings left, which at my rate of usage is 35 years, but charter and heavy corporate folks will run out of that far more quickly.

Mike C.

Ask Textron for the current price for a new 6641000-35 left hand main gear leg. Prepared to be shocked. Last time I checked it was $235K and that was a few years ago.

As Citation V and Ultra get over 10,000 landings, this life limited part will start to be a significant issue, too. The stock V runs out at 12,450 landings, Ultra and V with gross weight increase run out at 11,425 landings. As a chapter 4 life limited part, there's no grace period or extension possible, and a pair of new ones are obscenely expensive.

I have 3535 landings left, which at my rate of usage is 35 years, but charter and heavy corporate folks will run out of that far more quickly.

Mike C.

I really enjoy reading Mike and Chip’s posts. I learn from you both. You are each valuable contributors to BeechTalk…individually.

It looks like the only thing you can agree on is that the other is wrong.

That is the part in question that had the surface corrosion. It does cost over $200K. It might be $300K now. Per leg.

You could also replace the trunnion, 5541306-5, but that would require a rebuild of the gear assembly, which isn't trivial and requires specialized tools per the CMM.

The issue was the corrosion wasn't in an area the CMM provided guidance on corrosion mediation, despite it seemingly being in a non critical area. Stevens policy on that was to replace the part or engage Textron engineering for guidance. Given the prebuy situation, replacement was all they could offer. They apparently had no ability to use common sense and just clean and paint it.

The larger shops tended to create trivial engineering request at Textron. I was aware on one such case where Textron engineering was asked about a spot of corrosion on the small bracket holding the air conditioner hour meter. Hmm. Each such request, no matter how trivial, was at least a few $K of charge from Textron.


It was a quote for addressing the squawk. I don't know if the owner proceeded with it, but I doubt he did. He contacted me asking if I new where to get the gear reworked and/or to find a used one. I didn't have a lot of guidance on that since I was still learning the Citation ecosystem. There are used ones out there and they are sometimes six figures with less than half life left.

I've been to Stevens MQY, actually interviewed them to be my potential shop. While I was talking to one of their reps, another owner was in with the manager complaining about a $20K charge for reworking his EL panels. The owner was upset the shop didn't consult him first about the work. It was impossible not to hear some of that conversation. It became pretty clear Stevens wasn't the right kind of shop for me. This was 2019.

If you want to be hands off, drop the keys and a blank check, and let the shop make your plane new again, Stevens is perfect. Just remember that when you read reports on what it costs to fly these airplanes. What shop you choose and what strategies you employ make a huge difference. There are many viable ways to operate these planes, despite what any given expert may say.

Mike C.

One of us is a pilot, a jet owner, is involved directly in the maintenance and upkeep of the plane, and isn't selling you anything with commercially motivated postings.

The other one isn't any of those things.

I only intend to offer my perspective on things. You can use it or not as you see fit, it is worth what you paid, I guarantee that. If it doesn't agree with the preaching of others, well, so be it. Most are fine with that. A few feel the need to attack it. Guess they feel threatened by it for some reason.

To reiterate, a prebuy inspection is not an absolute requirement. It does not fully protect you by any means, it can miss large issues very easily. There are reasons and situations where it is not the best path. You can find horror stories both ways, those who wished they did a prebuy, and those who did one and something very serious was missed. It is a judgment call.

Mike C.

I had a buddy that always manages to mangle the English language in such ways as only he can. He always says “that’s a mute point”. I always answer “that goes without saying”. He still doesn’t get the joke.

His last one was about the starving emancipated children in Africa. I answered well at least they’re free now. He didn’t get it. It’s a fun drinking game i play.