A negative of this plan is the abuse these knobs can suffer from people getting in/out of the seats.

Mike C.

A negative of this plan is the abuse these knobs can suffer from people getting in/out of the seats.

Mike C.

I like the mode selector, AP controller and the Garmin knobs in the pedestal. It's just so natural to reach down there from either side and turn or push. My brain doesn't even have to think about it.

That makes it awkward for the copilot to know the FD mode since he doesn't have that close to his view, and really awkward for them to change modes.

I fly a good amount with a copilot so I like having the mode panel in the center. I find I look at the navigator at least as frequently as I want to check the FD mode, so my eyes are already "in the area" for the mode panel in the center.

For a plane that will be flown exclusively single pilot, your reasoning is sound, though you did spend a lot of money putting a PFD on the right hand side for nobody to use.

Mike C.

I'm surprised the PFD STC did not require that. The original mechanical ADI has mode annunciators built in.

On the panel picture he posted, there are 3 annunciators just left of the FD mode selector, so perhaps those are showing the FD mode (which is kind of silly given the proximity to the FD mode selector).

My STC has annunciators above pilot and copilot PFDs that relays the FD mode, aka the "scoreboard". This setup puts the FD mode right in front of you, but also lets the mode selector be reachable by both pilots.

With a Garmin autopilot STC (in the works), those would go away, replaced by on screen PFD indications.

With a Genesys/STEC autopilot STC (also in the works), it will still need discrete annunciators from what I understand.

Mike C.

Garmin just gave an update on the V. They are installing avionics now in a Citation V. Ground tests only this year. They are thinking early 2027 for the V.

The big unknown is price with Garmin. They see this as a panel overhaul, not an autopilot STC, so the STC will be the full install of everything, glass panels navigators, and autopilot. Any prior STC you have will be eliminated and your existing equipment can be reused with a credit for having it, but otherwise it is an all fresh install and new panels, wiring, etc. I expect this would end up costing me about $200K to get the Garmin AP despite my existing STC for the panels, maybe more.

Garmin also tends to be inflexible in their STCs, being very specific and limiting on things like placement, options, etc. This could cause issues on some installs.

Genesys/STEC said their AP STC kit will be $65K. it is just the AP. The impression is that it will work with prior panel STCs and be more flexible. They also seem to be perpetually within a year of release, but the expected date seems to be moving as fast as time passes, so not clear when this will get done. They are saying they will have broader model support than Garmin, though they haven't said exactly what that will be. They have flown the AP which is more than Garmin can say.

Neither one exists as of yet, so this is all speculation.

If Genesys gets to market sooner, is much lower cost, covers more models, and is more flexible, they could end up getting a lot of business that Garmin was expecting to win.

Whichever project get approved, there will be a LOT of Bravo, Ultra, Encore airplanes that will convert to drop the heavy and costly Primus 1000 system they are currently saddled with.

Mike C.

If they do it the way the CJ1 and CJ2 STCs were done, the GFC600 STC is separate and not tied to any specific G600TXi/G700TXi STC. It also has latitude on the GMC605 placement.

After quite a bit of collboration I believe there has been a parting of ways (to put it mildly) between Genesys and JetTech and that an Genesys AP will not be certified with JetTech panels.

That makes it awkward for the copilot to know the FD mode since he doesn't have that close to his view, and really awkward for them to change modes.

I fly a good amount with a copilot so I like having the mode panel in the center. I find I look at the navigator at least as frequently as I want to check the FD mode, so my eyes are already "in the area" for the mode panel in the center.

For a plane that will be flown exclusively single pilot, your reasoning is sound, though you did spend a lot of money putting a PFD on the right hand side for nobody to use.

I read it differently.

Initially, JetTech supplied the plane for the Genesys STC. But something happened, say JetTech found out Genesys wasn't going to limit the STC to JetTech panels, or maybe JetTech thought they were getting an exclusive, and they parted ways.

Genesys found another plane and that plane is flying already. I am pretty sure the Genesys STC will support JetTech panel STC as well as the Blackhawk STC which I have. I don't think the AP STC needs to be specific which panel STC was used.

The above is my impression of the situation, and not solid fact.

Mike C.

For those that have owned or currently own 500 series planes, what are the big maintenance issues you’ve run into during ownership? Anyone dealt with the 10k hour checks (phase 16,17,24,51,59)?

On the 560, the 10K checks were relatively minor cost. I think all four of mine together were under $10K (phase 15, 16, 17, 67) . There were no findings and the NDT tech said that she has never seen findings in the many years she has been doing this. The tests are all calibrated against damaged test articles provided by Textron, so this isn't due to the test being wrong.

That said, the 10K check on other models may be quite different, and could be more costly and extensive, so my experience may not be all that helpful.

As for big maintenance items, there really isn't one sore spot, it will vary with each example. My ACM overhaul was about $14K and is the biggest single item I've had, but is a 5000 hour interval. I had a hydraulic AOG event away from home that cost me $8K but that was mainly due to hiring an expensive AOG service to get back i the air. It would have otherwise been under $1K in my home shop. I had a cracked TR bucket, $5K for a salvage replacement. As far a single line items over $5K, that's it for my 4 years of ownership.

High dollar items in no particular order: paint, boots, windows, wheels, brakes. Of course, there is engine HSI/OH and avionic upgrades, but you already know that.

I took a plane with a lot of issues all over it and have steadily made it better, but really haven't had any major surprises in maintenance. That's possible, surely, but there are lots of resources in terms of parts and services to keep legacy Citations flying.

Mike C.

I would also add corrosion which would hopefully be found on a pre buy inspection of sorts.

Chip-