BeechTalk - BT - Vans RV aircraft temporarily suspending operations

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Jan 2024, 18:11

I've been listening to the full meeting of creditors currently in progress and now extending past four hours. Most of the creditor/builder callers asking questions seemed to have little to no concept of time, that there were many others wanting to ask questions, and that it really was not necessary to recite a complete litany of grievances, personal history and personal opinion in order to ask simple, relevant questions. Wow, just wow! But as a bankruptcy professional, the process was fascinating to listen to (while still being semi-productive, fortunately).

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Jan 2024, 18:27

Username Protected wrote:

Most of the creditor/builder callers asking questions seemed to have little to no concept of time, that there were many others wanting to ask questions, and that it really was not necessary to recite a complete litany of grievances, personal history and personal opinion in order to ask simple, relevant questions.

That summarizes nearly every zoom/teams meeting I've ever been on.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Jan 2024, 19:11

Username Protected wrote:

Most of the creditor/builder callers asking questions seemed to have little to no concept of time, that there were many others wanting to ask questions, and that it really was not necessary to recite a complete litany of grievances, personal history and personal opinion in order to ask simple, relevant questions.

That summarizes nearly every zoom/teams meeting I've ever been on.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Jan 2024, 22:36

Did they say anything in the meeting about engine deposits? My buddy gave them money for an engine 9-10 months ago, and was expecting an engine last month. Lyc says they don't have the money.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Jan 2024, 23:28

Username Protected wrote:

Did they say anything in the meeting about engine deposits? My buddy gave them money for an engine 9-10 months ago, and was expecting an engine last month. Lyc says they don't have the money.

Revised engine pricing should be announced within the week. On Van's timeline, that may mean within two weeks.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Jan 2024, 12:23

Username Protected wrote:

Did they say anything in the meeting about engine deposits? My buddy gave them money for an engine 9-10 months ago, and was expecting an engine last month. Lyc says they don't have the money.

I suspect he may be in the pool of folks who have little to no protection for their previous deposit unless they agree to a new contract for a higher price.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Jan 2024, 13:35

Username Protected wrote:

That summarizes nearly every zoom/teams meeting I've ever been on.

Sounds like a few safety standdowns from my Navy days too. We'd secretly play a bingo game based on predictions about who'd ask the worst questions. Why "bingo?" Well, because drinking games are frowned upon in that setting...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Jan 2024, 16:34

I’m also caught up in this mess with a deposit on a 14 tail kit. Recently I noticed that Van’s had been sending me a number of letters and emails to accept the new pricing and terms (Jan 30th is the deadline). So out of curiosity I decided to make a facebook poll on the the Vans Aircraft Builders group to ask who was going to accept the new pricing and terms. Seemed like a pretty straight forward and non controversial question right? Wrong! Within an hour at least a hundred people or more had responded and I would say the mix was maybe 70-30 for accepting the new terms and pricing so not too bad. Then out of nowhere the poll was deleted and I’m now blocked from posting in the group. It seems to me that just like on VAF some of the moderators on FB are very invested with Vans and they seem to be bending over backwards to block any dissenting opinion or question that doesn’t tow the party line. I understand that no one wants endless doom scrolling but when you start to delete benign polls/questions like mine just because you don’t like the results (even though the results weren’t that bad) than you create more questions than answers and people start to wonder what’s really going on…..

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Jan 2024, 18:52

Theres a Slack forum where RV builders can speak freely about how bad they're getting shafted. Yes VAF is heavily censored.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2024, 17:08

Username Protected wrote:

Yes VAF is heavily censored.

And with Van's BK, VAF picked the most gawd awful time to remake their forum which btw doesn't impress me.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2024, 18:01

Its not just the rework of the site, the owner of it is removing any posts that speak negatively about Vans, or anything resembling sharing of information about forfeited deposits for engines, etc.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2024, 18:15

I don't understand why the engines are in the picture at all, as this is a Van's airframe issue. What are the circumstances of forfeiting engine deposits? Really disappointing to hear the Van's forum is being censored of negative comments; if true, that further casts a shadow on the brand name.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2024, 18:28

They were using deposits to fund operations the past few months. They're keeping that, the money is gone. A friend of mine is out like 30K for his RV10 engine. All this waxing poetic about Van's Aircraft "doing the right thing" were pure speculation. The latest video now says use laser cut parts with cracks anyways. They were greasing the skids to default all the builders and suppliers' deposits.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2024, 18:32

Username Protected wrote:

I am surprised with all the financially savvy folks on BT, there is not more reading between the lines on the Van's post. Very sadly, I think they are in bigger trouble than just the laser cut holes. I have a lot of questions myself:
- How long were they skating by on PPP loans (forgiven) to cover their payroll? This might be the first year in several where they have actually had to cover payroll which could be a real financial hit.
- What's the real purpose of this stand down? Not sure it is just deciding what to do with the laser cut holes. It could just as easily be to "re-arrange" their funds, assets, and debt in advance of bankruptcy before all creditors are treated more equally.
- Are the deposits for kits and Lycoming engine deposits being kept in separate escrow-style accounts or are they using this money to fund their current operations? (I'd read the T&C's of my deposit very carefully before allowing Van's to continue to hold one..)
- What is the real demand for RV kits? After nearly 50 years, with so many already-built RV's out and flying, have the secondary sales of built-RV's that are "fixer up"/ "upgradable" projects themselves may have started to really cut too much into the demand for kits to continue to support their business model with just enthusiastic builders? There isn't a large market of prospective owners, and you can see it getting saturated. I know that they are sold out for 2 years in advance, but is the scale of what they are selling enough to support a business of their size?

This whole thing is sad for such an important part of the GA and experimental community. Hopefully they emerge from this ok, but there is certainly more to this story than one heartfelt explanation for a 2 month stand down.

this was posted 10 weeks ago.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2024, 18:43

Username Protected wrote:

They were using deposits to fund operations the past few months. They're keeping that, the money is gone. A friend of mine is out like 30K for his RV10 engine. All this waxing poetic about Van's Aircraft "doing the right thing" were pure speculation. The latest video now says use laser cut parts with cracks anyways. They were greasing the skids to default all the builders and suppliers' deposits.

Thanks Byron. I guess it's legal to keep engine deposits only under bankruptcy laws. I don't think the company can go forward under the same ownership. There might be Chinese RV's in the future.