Don't get me wrong - if someone gave me a VJ, the second thing I'd do would be to sell it and buy something else. (The first would be to take a joyride because - hey, new plane!) I'm agreeing with a lot of what both of you are saying, but when someone implies that you don't have to turn on the fuel....any pilot with a brain knows that's not the case.

So, let me understand, NON-FADEC jets are as simple to start and fly as FADEC jets? Seriously?

I don't think so. I don't own a jet or SETP. Hopefully soon. However, I have a friend that has owned an MU-2, a non FADEC CJ1, a Mustand, M2, and now a CJ3+. He tells me, often that starting and operating ANY jet is easier than most normally/turbo single engine planes, including my Mooney. But, he said a FADEC bird is MUCH easier and simpler to operate. Less chance for errors over temps, etc. etc.

Now, he does add once learn it and perfect it, it is "easy" but when he went to his Mustang, he said so much better and noticeable.

Let's not pretend that an older jet with less complex systems are simpler. THey are not, they may be easy or simple for you, but a FADEC jet, an SF50, a CJ3+ is just easier/simpler and with the back ups of the back ups, better for the systems. To say they are not means innovation doesn't count.

My 501 has ECU’s which is that same as Fadec but without redundancy.

So I have a computer running my engines. Pretty darn simple for me. I push the levers all the way forward for take off and after a minute or so I just reach down and pull it back a bit and the ECU sees I want MCT and does the rest. I never touch my throttles until decent when I have to slow down.

Mike

So, let me understand, NON-FADEC jets are as simple to start and fly as FADEC jets? Seriously?

I don't think so. I don't own a jet or SETP. Hopefully soon. However, I have a friend that has owned an MU-2, a non FADEC CJ1, a Mustand, M2, and now a CJ3+. He tells me, often that starting and operating ANY jet is easier than most normally/turbo single engine planes, including my Mooney. But, he said a FADEC bird is MUCH easier and simpler to operate. Less chance for errors over temps, etc. etc.

Now, he does add once learn it and perfect it, it is "easy" but when he went to his Mustang, he said so much better and noticeable.

Let's not pretend that an older jet with less complex systems are simpler. THey are not, they may be easy or simple for you, but a FADEC jet, an SF50, a CJ3+ is just easier/simpler and with the back ups of the back ups, better for the systems. To say they are not means innovation doesn't count.

That's way different from all the P&W legacy citations. Let me tell you, you don't know what precision touch means until you've tried to manually sync the engines on a Citation V at FL450. Touchy!

Uh, yeah, seriously. Only takes two actions to start it:

Push start button. Throttle over gate at 8% N2.

It is ridiculously simple. Easiest starting airplane I've ever seen.


They are. They have less doohickeys you need to know about and less procedures to deal with the doohickey if it fails.

Manual operation requires you learn one way to do something.

An automatic system requires you learn at least two ways, the normal way where it helps you, and the abnormal way where you have to manually take over for it. There may be more than one abnormal things you have to deal with.

The Boeing MCAS is an example. It was designed to make the plane simpler to fly by modifying the way the plane flew to be like prior models. But when it fails, it now demands special procedures to deal with it. Now there is even special training because of that.

Meanwhile the older generation 737 is just fine without it. So yes, older can be simpler.

Mike C.

That's not all you're doing. Before you even start you're checking battery voltage. When you engage the starter you're watching the ignition light to make sure it comes on, watching the oil pressure to make sure you have some before moving the fuel lever, watching the temp after introducing fuel, and watching to make sure the starter turns off after the engine reaches whatever % RPM. There's a lot more to it than what you are saying and FADEC does all that for you 100% perfectly every time.

Really? Mine aren't.

The synchronizer works just fine, and if I turn it off, I can manually adjust the engines pretty close without too much difficulty.

Are you not using the sync system?

Mike C.

Basically, all those things you listed are also stated in the SF50 checklist for engine start:

1. Strobe Lights.............................................................................................. ON
2. CAS Messages.................................................................................... CHECK
3. Thrust Lever............................................................................................ IDLE
4. Brakes ....................................................................................................HOLD
5. Engine Knob ............................................................................................RUN
6. Fuel Pump.......................................................................................... CHECK
a. Verify FUEL PUMP ON Advisory CAS is displayed.
b. Audibly confirm pump is ON.
7. Verify ENGINE START BAT TEMP or ENGINE START VOLTS CAS message is not displayed.
• NOTE •
Avoid rapidly pressing and releasing the engine button.
8. Engine Button....................................................................................... PRESS
9. Engine Instruments .......................................................................MONITOR
• CAUTION •
At 25% N2, ensure positive N1 indication.
Be prepared to abort start. If any of the following occur, abort start:
• ITT exceeds limits (red line).
• No N1 indication by 25% N2.
• No evidence of lightoff within 8 seconds.
• Low oil pressure after start.
10.EIS ...........................................................................CHECK ALL NORMAL
11.Engine IPS..................................................................................................A/R
12.ECS Control Panel ....................................................................................SET
13.External GPU........................................................................ DISCONNECT
14.Oxygen Master Switch ............................................................. VERIFY ON

The things you do to get the engine started on the SF50:

Check for CAS messages.
Check thrust lever in IDLE.
Select engine to RUN.
Check fuel pump CAS message.
Check fuel pump is audible.
Verify battery temp and battery volts CAS not on.
Press engine button.
Monitor engine instruments.
Check for N1 by 25% of N2.
Check ITT below red line.
Check for lack of lightoff in 8 seconds.
Be prepared to abort start if parameters exceeded.
Check for low oil pressure after start.
EIS check for normal.

Basically, you do all the same checks and monitoring I do, if not more.

So where is this magic FADEC advantage? You have to do the same work because the FADEC might screw up.

There is no pilot out there who has the talent to start an SF50 who can't also start a Citation. This distinction is totally without merit.

Mike C.

Really? Mine aren't.

The synchronizer works just fine, and if I turn it off, I can manually adjust the engines pretty close without too much difficulty.

Are you not using the sync system?

Mike C.

Basically, all those things you listed are also stated in the SF50 checklist for engine start:

1. Strobe Lights.............................................................................................. ON
2. CAS Messages.................................................................................... CHECK
3. Thrust Lever............................................................................................ IDLE
4. Brakes ....................................................................................................HOLD
5. Engine Knob ............................................................................................RUN
6. Fuel Pump.......................................................................................... CHECK
a. Verify FUEL PUMP ON Advisory CAS is displayed.
b. Audibly confirm pump is ON.
7. Verify ENGINE START BAT TEMP or ENGINE START VOLTS CAS message is not displayed.
• NOTE •
Avoid rapidly pressing and releasing the engine button.
8. Engine Button....................................................................................... PRESS
9. Engine Instruments .......................................................................MONITOR
• CAUTION •
At 25% N2, ensure positive N1 indication.
Be prepared to abort start. If any of the following occur, abort start:
• ITT exceeds limits (red line).
• No N1 indication by 25% N2.
• No evidence of lightoff within 8 seconds.
• Low oil pressure after start.
10.EIS ...........................................................................CHECK ALL NORMAL
11.Engine IPS..................................................................................................A/R
12.ECS Control Panel ....................................................................................SET
13.External GPU........................................................................ DISCONNECT
14.Oxygen Master Switch ............................................................. VERIFY ON

The things you do to get the engine started on the SF50:

Check for CAS messages.
Check thrust lever in IDLE.
Select engine to RUN.
Check fuel pump CAS message.
Check fuel pump is audible.
Verify battery temp and battery volts CAS not on.
Press engine button.
Monitor engine instruments.
Check for N1 by 25% of N2.
Check ITT below red line.
Check for lack of lightoff in 8 seconds.
Be prepared to abort start if parameters exceeded.
Check for low oil pressure after start.
EIS check for normal.

Basically, you do all the same checks and monitoring I do, if not more.

So where is this magic FADEC advantage? You have to do the same work because the FADEC might screw up.

There is no pilot out there who has the talent to start an SF50 who can't also start a Citation. This distinction is totally without merit.

Mike C.

If I was starting Jet Acquisitions today I would become the SF50 acquisition guy, that’s a stunning number of airframes and each one of them will be ready to upgrade to a larger jet in a few years.

Until it doesn't.

That is why all those checks are still in the SF50 checklist.


And you do it on the SF50 to back up the automation in case it fails.

I actually DON'T do it manually. The fuel controller on my engines, despite having no electronics, programs the fuel schedule so the start is done right. I am only monitoring in case it gets it wrong (which it never has so far in my experience). This is EXACTLY the same as the SF50 with FADEC, you monitor it in case it gets it wrong.


And yet not a single requirement to monitor and check its operation has been removed from the SF50 checklist. Not one. You are literally looking at the exact same parameters, light off, temperature, N1 rotation, oil pressure.

The workload on the pilot remains the same.

Perfect illustration of how automation often doesn't change the pilot workload due to its possible failure.

Here is a FADEC equipped engine after a start failure (CJ4 at KLCK in 2014)

Despite having a FADEC, the Williams engines seem to be far more sensitive to start conditions than the JT15D. The above incident is not the only one for the Williams and I don't know of one for the JT15D (though surely one does exist?).

FADEC faults also cause dispatch problems. Some operators carry the data cables and adapters (about $2K BTW) and a laptop with the software to reset certain FADEC faults that would otherwise prevent dispatch. The logs I reviewed for an FJ44 equipped S550 showed FADEC issues about 2 to 3 times per year throughout its history.

And then they do fail:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... el-failure

And there is also the infamous dual FADEC failure of the Eclipse EA500 at KMDW that had the pilot dead stick the airplane back to the runway after it nearly killed them on the first landing.

Just because something is new and automated doesn't make it always better, easier, or safer.

Mike C.

Excuses! It's not too late, just go do it now!

You may have had bad throttle cables. A symptom of that is flaky sync because the cable is flexing the primary control input back and forth. Then, when you turn sync off, it becomes challenging to sync manually for the same reason.

When you make a power change, turn sync off briefly and get the engines manually close, then back on. If you don't do this, one engine might be at the control limit for the sync actuator and you end up losing sync. Many pilots never do this and then they wonder why some percentage of the time the sync isn't working well. Those times are when you are up against the sync actuator limit.

With tight throttle cables and keeping the manual setting close to balanced, the sync box works very well on my airplane.

Mike C.