21 Nov 2025, 11:01 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is...  Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 10:18 |
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Joined: 03/04/13
Posts: 2793
Post Likes: +1409
Location: Little Rock, Ar
Aircraft: A36 C560 C551 C560XL
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Once you have operated an airplane with an APU, you’re not going to want to be without it.
The convenience cannot be overstated.
Robert T
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 10:24 |
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 20751
Post Likes: +26230
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Once you have operated an airplane with an APU, you’re not going to want to be without it.
The convenience cannot be overstated. Can you explain why? Seems like extra work to start it, monitor it, and maintain it. Probably some number of pages of extra procedures, normal and otherwise. So where is the benefit? Mike C.
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Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 10:36 |
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Joined: 04/26/13
Posts: 21915
Post Likes: +22576
Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
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Username Protected wrote: Off the top of my head :
Astra, Citation 650 (3,6,7), Hawker 6/7/800, Sabre, Lear 45/75/60 (not sure about the 55?). No APU in the 55.
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My last name rhymes with 'geese'.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 10:44 |
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Joined: 04/26/13
Posts: 21915
Post Likes: +22576
Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
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Username Protected wrote: Once you have operated an airplane with an APU, you’re not going to want to be without it.
The convenience cannot be overstated. Can you explain why? Seems like extra work to start it, monitor it, and maintain it. Probably some number of pages of extra procedures, normal and otherwise.
I'm not seeing the extra work. It starts with a toggle switch and press of a button. Once its running it requires no monitoring, though all of the planes that have one also have a FO to sit there and babysit it. Maintenance, yeah, but it's a jet engine. How much maintenance is it going to need on a regular basis? Pages of extra procedures? LOL. If the internal protection features don't shut it down, press the red button. When you want to turn it off, press the red button. Done.
What's nice about an APU is that you aren't reliant on a ground cart. Yes, those are great, but a GPU doesn't supply bleed air for A/C. If you have freon AC, you're all set, but if not, you're sweating. If the FBO doesn't have a GPU, or it's broken, or it's a battery cart that's only good for starting, or it's TEB at rush hour, or, or...
Being self sufficient is very nice. Being able to provide a comfortable cabin for your passengers, and infinite power for your instruments is a luxury. Not being dependent on the FBO? Priceless. All of this can be accomplished at a much higher fuel burn and greater hazard by simply starting the right engine. Not having an APU is economical, just like having crank down windows. Nobody "needs" power windows.
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My last name rhymes with 'geese'.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 11:03 |
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Joined: 11/18/16
Posts: 93
Post Likes: +84
Aircraft: King Air C90
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Username Protected wrote: Once you have operated an airplane with an APU, you’re not going to want to be without it.
The convenience cannot be overstated. Can you explain why? Seems like extra work to start it, monitor it, and maintain it. Probably some number of pages of extra procedures, normal and otherwise. So where is the benefit? Mike C.
Well, for us one of the biggies is time and operation need, and it’s on 2 fronts. One - on the Astra we’ve got small batteries. This means we don’t have a lot of battery time to accomplish all the pre flight checks, so per the checklist we have to do one of two things - get a power cart or fire up the APU. Most larger Fbo’s (yes, I know we can find some that don’t charge, but our area isn’t one of them) are charging anywhere from $75-125/hr for using a lower cart. Our MSP on the apu is $100/hr. It burns $42/hr in fuel, so for us, 45 minutes of running, it costs us about $115 to run the apu.
Second time savings - when the boss man gets on, we’re taxiing out in under 5 minutes. If we can save 10 minutes on every leg, we’ve bought the guys in back an extra 45 minutes every day we fly. Over the year, that’s almost a full week (24hr day) of extra time- or 10 days if we only use a 12 hr work day. Referring way back to Crandall’s old argument about loosing weeks of time due to school house training making jets slower than a TP…well, there ya go. Everything is already checked, already up and ready. Just start the engines, and off we go. And it’s cool inside on a hot day, and warm on a cold day. First world problems, but still…
Mike, to answer the starting sequence : on our birds here’s the sequence :
Batt on (one button)
Fire/overheat check (one button)
Right fuel pump on (one button)
Apu start (one button)
APU Gen on (one button)
Then we get into running expanded checks in the cockpit and exterior, etc…. Takes about 60 seconds to get the APU up and online.
There is additional Maintenace events to accomplish since we have one, however, our experience has been that all our Maint exposure has been covered under our MSP coverage.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 12:41 |
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Joined: 09/05/12
Posts: 698
Post Likes: +524
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Aircraft: C310R, E55P, H130T2
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Username Protected wrote:
I think with the 300E that’s exactly what it is, just running at idle. With the PC-24 it’s actually running at a minimum power setting, well below idle.
Chip I think you're right. "Embraer introduced the ground power mode (GPM) capability to the Phenom 300E aircraft for power independence during ground operations. The feature enables pilots to operate one of the engines in idle mode to power environmental, lighting and entertainment systems of the aircraft."The P300E is similar to PC24 but its Pratt vs Williams so maybe Williams has a better mouse trap, like I said we don't ever use in the P300E. I just asked my guys, "there is a 20 min limitation then it counts against cycle time. Another limitation is when operating in ground power mode that a pilot(s) must be in the cockpit the whole time at their station." I would imagine the PC24 has similar limitations. While it's likely a great marketing tool, we've not encountered a practical use for it as everywhere we go has fuel trucks and GPUs.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 13:00 |
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Joined: 01/23/18
Posts: 821
Post Likes: +1233
Aircraft: Aerostar
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Back in the dark ages (mid 90s), in the SAAB 340 (GE CT-7 engines), we’d put the right engine in feather, push up the power enough to get the ITT to drop and then open the high pressure bleed to run the ACM. Made for nice cooling while waiting in those long lines going out to take off in LGA etc, we’d move using the power from the unfeathered left engine. Worked pretty well, cool crew, cool passengers = happy crew and passengers! Of course, we weren’t paying for the gas. I don’t remember any issues about adding cycles to the engine or time limitations. Exhaust was out the back so no worries about hot exhaust (while feathered) causing problems, (unlike the KA350 and B1900). 
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 13:46 |
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Joined: 08/14/13
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Username Protected wrote: For the record, yes, a GPU will provide ground cooling on mustangs and the CJ series as well as some king airs due to the a/c being electric. It is one of the reasons I bought my KA, and in the past year of operation I’m a bit surprised to see FBOs that don’t understand this, they assume I want a GPU for engine starting only Daniel runs a top notch FBO and has a great tethered GPU that doesn’t consume any fuel and is easy for the ground guys to position on the pad, he’s got it figured out Added benefit to being on a GPU for a while before engine start is you get a good solid 20% N1 with a freshly topped off battery
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 14:11 |
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 20751
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: What's nice about an APU is that you aren't reliant on a ground cart. As long as the APU starts. Dead or weak battery can prevent that, too. As long as my right engine starts, I'm good, too. Granted that may take more battery than starting an APU, but not a great deal more. Mike C.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 14:14 |
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: For the record, yes, a GPU will provide ground cooling on mustangs and the CJ series as well as some king airs due to the a/c being electric. Most legacy Citations (501, 550, 560) have vapor cycle (aka "freon") electric AC that can run off GPU. Nice. Mike C.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 15:47 |
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Joined: 10/05/09
Posts: 1171
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Location: Charleston, SC (KJZI)
Aircraft: Phenom 300, Bell 505
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Username Protected wrote: For the record, yes, a GPU will provide ground cooling on mustangs and the CJ series as well as some king airs due to the a/c being electric. The Phenom 100 and 300 also will run A/C off the GPU; no heat.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 15:54 |
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Joined: 12/30/15
Posts: 1821
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Location: Charlotte
Aircraft: Avanti-Citabria
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Username Protected wrote:
Added benefit to being on a GPU for a while before engine start is you get a good solid 20% N1 with a freshly topped off battery what is better for long term health of airplane battery? Starting from GPU or putting high demand on battery by using battery to start first engine?
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I wanna go phastR.....and slowR
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 16:13 |
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Joined: 09/05/12
Posts: 698
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Location: Vero Beach, FL
Aircraft: C310R, E55P, H130T2
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Username Protected wrote:
Added benefit to being on a GPU for a while before engine start is you get a good solid 20% N1 with a freshly topped off battery what is better for long term health of airplane battery? Starting from GPU or putting high demand on battery by using battery to start first engine?
With turbines it's more about preventing a hung start from a weak battery than battery health/longevity.
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Post subject: Re: The Best Light Jet is... Posted: 13 Dec 2021, 16:23 |
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Joined: 08/14/13
Posts: 6410
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Username Protected wrote:
Added benefit to being on a GPU for a while before engine start is you get a good solid 20% N1 with a freshly topped off battery what is better for long term health of airplane battery? Starting from GPU or putting high demand on battery by using battery to start first engine?
I don’t care about the battery nearly as much as my engine- Battery is on a 5 year service cycle, when it starts to fail cap checks we will inspect more frequently and replace accordingly
I think it’s on my tracking for replacement in 2023, in the meantime, I’ll beat it up weekly!
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