That is only because JG was around when Lustig tried to sell the tower...
He thinking of that, I think JG was in heavy construction and recovery at one point....
Hmmmm. Did JG work in France?

Tim (who is about to get clobbered by elders...)[/quote]

Tim,

Longevity has some benefits. I remember vividly the first time I got my bumpus greased and twatted by a hypester. I was seven and all the guys were into baseball cards. My dad wouldn't let me buys such nonsense, with a sugar coating being the gum, but one day I bought a pack. We all met at the Methodist Church playground and I opened my first pack of baseball gum/cards. Low and behold, I got a Mickey Mantle. A guy four years older than me, Raleigh Schultz, convinced me that his Joe Smith card was better and got the Mantle card away from me before I had time to retreat. I've been pissed about that for 61 years.

On the other hand, I learned a very valuable lesson. I'm not ever again giving up a Mickey Mantle for a Joe Smith.

Jgreen

Reviving this thread. (Love the skeptical discussion, great points all around!) Let me ask you all this. Throw out all of claims about this airplane that you think are crazy. Make your own estimations and ask yourself, would you still want it?

Let's say the max cruise speed ends up somewhere in between a Cirrus SR22T and a Velocity TXL. Say, 225 KTAS @ FL250.

Let's say he fails at adapting the Audi engine and has to use an off the shelf aviation engine. In which case, he uses either the EPS diesel engine (due for FAA certification this year) or Continental’s CD-300 diesel, which is already certified.

Let's say FF is 11 -12 gph, which is about what EPS and Continental are claiming.

And let's say the price doubles to $260k.

An airplane that does 225 KTAS on 11 - 12 gph of Jet-A with a 2,000+ NM range with a 62" wide pressurized cabin for $260k? Wouldn't you still want that?

Also keep in mind your deposit is held in escrow, and therefore not at risk. If at any point (before they start on your specific airplane) something doesn't look right, you can back out and get your deposit back, minus a $65 escrow fee. At this point, you'd have 1100+ guys in front of you - plenty to watch for shortcomings.

Still falls so far outside the realm of feasibility to be believed.

For one example, the engine is going to cost $150K alone. If the rest of the plane were free, they still can't sell it for $260K.

Mike C.

So add another $50k. Velocity TXL complete with engine is $290k. So your choice, $290k with a TSIO-550 and the associated fuel burn, or an extra $50k for the lower fuel burn on cheaper gas and 1,000 hour longer TBO.

Sure bet there's a market for that plane.

There is always a market for a plane that exceeds physics while being priced below economic reason.

The issue is building them profitably.

Ask yourself why a Mirage costs what it does and why Piper is so stupid they can't make it cheaper.

Mike C.

Dude, I'm not talking about an airplane that "exceeds physics." I placed the performance quite reasonably between the SR22T and the Velocity TXL. I'm also not comparing pricing to a production plane like the Mirage. Again, the similar Velocity TXL is a more apt comparison.

Ok, I’ll bite... how do you come up with $150k for a 3 liter V6 Audi engine that can be purchased brand new for $12k from the dealer?

Because the post from McGee supposed this sequence of events:

"Let's say he fails at adapting the Audi engine and has to use an off the shelf aviation engine. In which case, he uses either the EPS diesel engine (due for FAA certification this year) or Continental’s CD-300 diesel, which is already certified."

Thus he was buying an aircraft engine. That class of high end engine I would expect to be $150K each.

Mike C.

Also, Audi won't sell them to someone knowing they are going in an airplane. So they would have a supplier problem right from the start.

Mike C.

No pressurization.

Takes cabin strength, cabin weight to do that. Therefore, does not fall on the same curve as the SR22 to Velocity TXL line.


So the Raptor won't be "produced"? That I believe!

Mike C.

Quite possibly! I'm no fanboy on this project. I'm a skeptic, too. I'm just thinking it shouldn't be that difficult to create an experimental plane like the Velocity, since it's already been done and they have one of the Velocity guys on their team.

Anyway, given that Cirrus is selling SR22Ts for damn near $1M, even if the price inflates to $500k, people will pay that for the extra comfort/speed/range, etc.

I don't know if they will get it done or not, I hope they do. I have thought about it this way before. Lets say it only preforms as well as an SR22, same speed, fuel burn, climb, etc. And lets say its 350-400K thats roughly half of what a new SR22 costs right? I bet they could sell them at that price if it just preformed as well as a SR22.

The problem I see is guys like me can't get one even at that price. Their goal was to make this the SUV of the sky and have a plane that lots of people could afford, and fly safe. If an individual could not do it they wanted to make a plane that 2-4 partners from the average middle class could afford together. I think they will fall short of that goal.

But if they can just match the performance and saftey of the SR22 and do it at half the price or less then half the price don't you think they will sell a few???

The other thing I really like is the factory build model. I would be able to do 2 or 3 weeks at the factory to build my plane or at least my 51%. But I doubt I would ever finish if I was doing it myself here at the airport.

If they manage to produce a 4 seat airplane for $260K, they will be doing better than anyone else in aviation. Piper, Cessna, Diamond - does anybody sell such an airplane today? Why the hell these things cost so much I don't understand ... but the idea of selling a high end IFR travel machine for $260K isn't compatible with any currently observed facts in the aviation universe

Two of the reasons production airplanes cost so much are (1) bureaucratic certification costs and (2) liability. Piper, Cessna, Diamond are not the relevant comparison. It's an experimental, not a certified production airplane. As posted above, the Velocity TXL is $290k complete with engine.