I think it really depends on if Citation fits in low utilization program. When I looked, 200 hours per year didn’t work for it, but I was only looking at Bacon program. The lack of really anything being calendar on Piaggio and everything lining up nearly w my 200 hrs schedule lowered costs over a 10 yr period.

Miles last year = 72k.

My LUMP program says 200 hours/year.

It will take less than 200 hours in a Citation to replace 200 hours of an Avanti.


Not a very good program, IMO. The Textron LUMP is vastly superior.

Mike C.

Thanks for the detailed numbers - they're very useful. A few questions:

What are the usage limits on the LUMP plan? Is it a flat 200 hours, or can you go over one year and under the next? Did you have to design it yourself, or is that a factory option?

What's your plan for engines? I don't mean TAP, etc - I mean, are you planning on not overhauling? HSI only? Buy another pair of engines when you hit overhaul? What's the planned budget, and how many hours away is it?

The Textron LUMP is offered at their whim so they could choose to not offer it. I know they have in the past not offered it on FJ44 converted legacy Citations, but I've also heard of one instance where they did offer it on a converted airplane. On a mostly stock airplane, it feels like they would offer it.

They asked me some questions about my usage so the program does seem tailored to individual use cases. I know some folks have had different numbers than I have had and perhaps my answers do influence what they give.

I've attached my actual LUMP letter authorizing the use.

As to what happens if you go over 200 hours, I don't really know. The letter doesn't outright prohibit that. It says:

"This LUMP is designed for annual operating flight hours less than 200 flight hours."

Is that a prohibition against flying 201 hours in one year? Not clear to me. Logically, flying a bit more just means the inspections come due based on hours earlier, which seems like no actual safety risk. In any case, I seriously doubt if I will touch 200 hours in a year, that's a bucket load of miles, and if I am close, I'll just probably carry on as if I didn't. I don't see them carting me off to jail for this one. If I do go over one year and under another, I can probably find a 12 month span to either side which is under 200 hours each year, so there's some fudge room there just based on what interval you choose to measure it over.

The Textron LUMP is vastly superior to the Bacon program because it costs $6K versus $20K, Bacon has recurring costs of about $1500/year and there are none with Textron, The Bacon program splits some things out you have to do on the old schedule, Textron moves everything to the new schedule, and since Textron is the OEM, the LUMP qualifies under 91.409(f)(3) (program provided by the manufacturer) and thus doesn't require FSDO approval, Bacon requires FSDO approval under 91.409(f)(4). I also got my Textron LUMP program approved in 4 days from application to having it in hand.


My engines are setup nicely on cycle life to go about another 6000 hours. That's when some major parts start to cycle out. In particular, I have a young impeller which was replaced due to the old one cycling out on the last overhaul. In some ways, getting a lower time airplane with an impeller about to cycle out is more costly than getting a higher time one with the impeller already replaced.

The 6000 hours left works out nicely to finish my current HSI interval in 362 hours, due a hot section and fly another 1800 hours (which will be past TBO), and then consider a full overhaul for another 3600 hours. That's 5762 hours left before the engines becomes really expensive to fly further on life limited parts. At 150 hours/year, that's 38 years. I clearly won't be owning the airplane by then. Just the next HSI gets me 2162 hours, about 14 years more.

So my plan is to fly past TBO and do HSI. The high time engines are one reason I got the plane cheaply, and once they are past TBO, the engine value is basically minimal for the next HSI cycle. Will be some lift for recent hots, but not a great deal.

The cost of the HSI is hard to know. There are places that I hear about claiming under $50K a side. I will start to do more serious research as I get closer to see what it will cost. A factor will be how well my HT blades pass. I do have the "on condition" blades which are not life limited other than they have to pass inspection every HSI.

Mike C.

Picked up the most ice yet today. Beautiful few days in Traverse City turned into storms today.

Had all the heat lights on by 9000ft, got into the clouds at 14000 and had ice all the way up till breaking out at FL200. Was around -10C most of the way thru. I reported light. But it was moderate at best. Built a horn on the visual indicator just behind pilots window.

I didn’t get a pic of ice on the wings - but I was surprised how much appeared to build with the wing ice active.

The ice never fully sublimated from visual indicator. Very unusual. We were lucky enough to get more ice on descent into Columbus.

I had the engine separators running the entire flight. Sure slowed us down - but I could just picture that ice breaking off and going thru the engine…

Wind shear alerts and some pretty good precipitation on approach/final.

Fun day!

$1k/hour has not been my experience. I had a really expensive year last year (200hr/600hr/5 year) - $700/hr for maint. I see this year at about $400/hr.

I'm spending $700/hr on fuel. My home base fuel is generally $5.50/gal, and one of our common destinations has been running $7/gal ish. If I was in a legacy jet this would hurt even more.

On an engine program @ $400/hr.

Hangar/insurance $250/hr (need to fly more to lower this...)

Reliable as f***

I have had 0 issues with parts availability.

So maybe $500/hour average?


Yes, high fuel prices make the jet less attractive. I do shop pretty hard on fuel when I can. You seem to frequent airports with a CAA FBO: KCMH, KTVC, KAGC, KTUL, KSRQ, KIND, KPWM, etc. If you don't have CAA, you really need to get it, saves on fees, too. The fuel prices you listed are well above what the CAA prices are for the above locations.

You are at about $1200/hr fuel and maintenance based on the above. I'm not far from that when corrected for miles versus hours.


3500 hours TBO at $400/hour is $1.4M per engine overhaul cycle for a pair of engines.

I understand there is an insurance aspect to this, but that sure feels like a lot of money to spend on engines. It could be close to the entire value of the airframe.

Mike C.

Use CAA at all those places (except home base) and everywhere else I can. My $700/hr rate for fuel includes transient FBO fees as well.

I think you mentioned in a previous post that fuel prices have declined a bit. TVC was over $7.00 in Feb. Now closer to $6. I also needed a hangar to de-ice one trip - $450!

Flying to LUK this week. I’ll patronize CAA provider there - but Signature is actually a tick less expensive. Signature is CAA at CMH - I hangar at Lane for a number of reasons so I’m missing out at home - if Signature honored CAA.

After exploring this thread on what it costs, both money and downtime, to maintain an Avanti, I am pretty sure my Citation V will end up costing me less per mile while meeting those criteria. I can definitely fly 1500 nm, over 350 knots, with 8 people on board.

I will burn more fuel than the Avanti, but my maintenance profile seems vastly cheaper due to very long inspection intervals (3/6 years), local shops I can use (saves ferry costs, more competition), and vastly cheaper parts (aftermarket, used, large ecosystem).

Add in headwinds and recently lower fuel prices, it is even more clear. Add in downtime, or lack of availability, that's a pretty severe "speed" issue in itself.

The Avanti can have other redeeming features, but I don't think it actually wins the lowest cost per mile metric given the criteria and what I read about keeping it flying.

Mike C.

My thoughts are well aligned with Mark Wyant's most recent post - well stated.

Operational question for the Avanti pilots out there. Yesterday was the first time I desired to keep the wing anti-ice on for an extended period of time, in climb/cruise. Short flight, only climbed to FL290. Cabin climbed to 7000' and was still rising a bit. Is this normal when using bleed air to heat the wings - or should I be able to maintain normal cabin pressure/altitude?

Thanks.

Not at all.

Overhaul of big block PT6 is about the same cost per hour as JT15D-5A. I've seen the invoices. 10 years ago, it cost $525K/side for PT6-6x series overhauls (PT6A-61 on Cheyenne IIIA in 2013). Both engines have 3500/1750 intervals. I get more miles per hour. I have no props to overhaul, either.

I suspect the engine reserve per mile is very similar between an Avanti and a Citation V.


My airplane cost much more than that at the "best service centers". But being expensive wasn't being good.


Agreed, Textron service is very expensive. Now, as to value... hmmm.


Absolutely. I am doing everything in my power to reasonably lower my maintenance costs. I have it maintained at my home field (saves a ton on ferrying), I participate in the maintenance strategy, the purchase of parts, the debugging of issues, etc. I don't do hardly any actual work on the plane itself, though. The plane is in far better shape than when I got it after almost 30 years of Textron service centers. Things they ignored or did flat wrong I am fixing.


Yes, the fuselage cross section is larger. My cabin is quite a bit longer, but that dimension isn't so material to passenger comfort.


You sure?

My plane can carry 9 people presently (10 with belted toilet). Take out the forward galley, it becomes 11. My ZFW payload is 3000 lbs. That's 330 lbs per seat.

I just don't see how the Avanti would be able to carry more than that in quantity or weight.

At max ZFW with 3000 lbs on board, I also have 3,900 lbs fuel on board, plenty to go on a serious trip.


All true, but there is initial training and recurrent training for the Avanti, so not all that different.

Is there a sim for the Avanti? If so, what does initial and recurrent cost? How many sims exist?


Is it really? By how much? Is it actually less per mile? With headwinds?


So maintenance is $500/hour? My 122.1 hours in my V is about 140 hours in the Avanti, or $70K/year. I had a moderately "big" year with phase 1-4 and ACM overhaul, spent $33K. Just one year, of course, but no major inspections in 2023 and 2024 at all.

I do get more miles from my hours, and headwinds are less of an issue due to both flying higher and flying faster.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to find out the Avanti is cheaper to own overall than a V, I might consider switching which is why I read this thread. But the posts in this thread make me reluctant to join that ecosystem due to onerous maintenance, small ecosystem, and high cost of parts. I do register the enthusiasm of the owners, but also their frustration with downtime and maintenance.

Give me a few years, get past my HSI and a phase 5, and let's see how it turns out. I suspect I'll still be happy with what I got. I've got less than $1M invested (plane and Garmin upgrade), and in today's market, you can't find anything remotely close to it for that price. Buying an Avanti now is no go for me now, too, way too expensive.

Mike C.

Good points. I will disagree on engine overhaul costs. The PT6 can be overhauled at Dallas for 500K and the Hots typically run 40K. The JT Pratts run 650K and the Hots are 130K each. This is from Standard Aero *old Dallas Airmotive quotes.

The Avanti I I am looking at is 7800 lbs with the Garmin panel. It holds 2800 lbs of fuel which will give it a no wind range of 1500 miles (I cant compete with your range). The fuel flow average is around 90 GPH at FL380 at 380 knots. Your fuel flow is 150 gph at FL430 with a comparable speed (it might be 20 knots faster). So the Avanti I has around 1500 lbs of useful load with full fuel ... yours? You DO have 2 more seats than me.

Here is a factor as well Mike. Winds can get absolutely vicious in the winter even up to FL450 which you aren't always at. I suspect with a 1.5 average block you have stated your typical altitude is more like FL410 where 110 knot headwinds aren't unusual in the winter. In the Avanti you can go down to FL 210 without a huge penalty and get away from these winds. I would be scared to see your cruise fuel flows at FL210...

As to maintenance I budget 500 an hour to be safe as it seems to be what everyone is around even with so many being retrofitted and brought up to speed. I suspect when the fleet has been either upgraded or canabalized that number will go down. Intercontinental Jet is a great service center but there prices are every bit as high as the Citation Service Centers. I am sure there are independent shops that are out there that can do it for less.

Pricing is another story. I agree things are high but I dont see the Piaggio bottom dropping out. They are just too unique. At least the 1's are with the Garmin Panel. I am not interested in the II... I hate PL21 and thats one of the reasons I sold my other one.

Mark

Dallas is a gold plated shop, for sure. Even so, the numbers aren't too different. They get closer when viewed on a per mile basis.

I'm suspicious the PT6 numbers are low given the invoice I saw 10 years ago at $525K/side. Maybe they had issues. I tend not to believe numbers that aren't from an actual invoice.

My strategy is to find an independent shop, do the HSI and fly past TBO. Tarver gets JT15D HSI for $50K he says. Okay, maybe. I shall see when I go shopping for it.


I'm 9200 lbs empty, 16,100 lbs ramp, 5800 lbs fuel max. 1100 lbs useful full fuel. Drop 400 lbs fuel to get to 1500 lbs cabin load and I can go 1500 nm in still air. There is also a gross up kit that raises my weight by 400 lbs, which I don't have but is only paperwork, then I get 1500 lbs cabin and full fuel. Downside is slight reduction in landing gear life.


I know all about viscous winter headwinds in my MU2. Flying a number of times to Seattle with 100+ knot headwinds was painful. One of the primary reasons to get the jet was to deal with that.

When you get above FL400, the winds often do die down some, I've seen as much as 30 knots improvement. Of course, FL450 is up there and it takes some time to get there, too, so only worth it when you need max range.


For a 1.5 hour leg, the winds don't matter. It is the long cross country legs that come into play, then it is worth getting higher for lower fuel flow and lower headwinds.


That's turboprop thinking. Jet thinking is go high and fast enough to cut through them.


I used them initially for my MU2, so I am aware.


This is where the Piaggio and Citation diverge. The Citation has tons of shops that have worked on them, all over the country and is the most common jet flying around, numbers in the many thousands. Lots of field experience everywhere, and defacto a "normal" airplane.

The Piaggio is anything but normal. Nothing else looks like it or works like it. Only about 200 flying. I sense you really need to find people who have worked on it before and not suffer the training and mistakes of newbies on it.

The tremendous amount of choice I have in shops makes me able to optimize my experience. I just don't sense that for the Piaggio. It would be more like the MU2 where I went to Chuck for service, not my local guys.

On parts, there are so many Citations in salvage yards that you can find just about anything. Bought a hydraulic pump for $200, for example. The ecosystem is just so large for Citation and it really wasn't for the MU2, and the Piaggio numbers are similar.

Mike C.

Well the Piaggio is prettier. So there

Again, thanks - that's very helpful.

What I find really interesting is that the old program seems to be based on about 150 hours a year, and the new program is based on about 150 hours a year.

Basically it seems you got them to agree to extend your phase inspections by saying "Please, may I have longer phase intervals?"

Did you submit any engineering data other than a polite request?