The gear arrangement on a Citation doesn't present one edge of the tire to the runway first, it is presented basically flat to the runway. Flipping tires around won't get you any meaningful more life on a Citation.

If your tires are not wearing evenly on a Citation, do the camber adjustment to fix it. If they are wearing quickly, check the toe in adjustment.

For planes like MU2 and Piaggio, the tires are tilted at touch down and present one edge first. The wear tends to be concentrated on that edge. For those planes, flipping the tire around result in meaningfully more life.

If the life extension is double from flipping (I don't think it will be exactly, but maybe close on MU2, Piaggio), then it doesn't cost any more labor to do the flip since you'd have to replace the tire at that time anyway.

The tires on my Citation have 216 hours and 161 landings and I think they aren't quite half done. So getting 500 hours, 350 landings seems like it might be my normal usage from a set. I tend to be very gentle on brakes which should help.

Mike C.

FWIW, I just bought a couple Michelin 028-357-0 (6.50x10 12 ply 190mph) for P180. $500 each, which doesn't seem ridiculous given the general market.

Might consider buying them yourself:

Michelin 028-357-0

Desser: $499.95 (in stock?)
Boeing (Avial): $568.74 (in stock)
Aircraft Spruce: $598.00 (in stock)

If only I could get Michelin to restart making my Citation tires...

Mike C.

Brad, maybe your just unusually fortunate?
Not a big sample size, but. . .
Reference Matt G White posts on pages 130 and after.
Wyant’s disappointing posts about speed, altitude, and weight issues on his 180-II.
Costs and downtime could scare away many owner-operators. If you have the ability to trade in and out of aircraft like Tarver, maybe you avoid the bad luck.
Obviously the economics are way different now that prices have run up. I suppose jumping into a 3,900 hour P180 with fresh engines, gear and a recent D check could be a much different experience than a project airplane with everything overdue.

Yep, that’s where I got them. https://shop.desser.com/6.50x10-12-ply-michelin-aviator-190-mph-tire/ecomm-product-detail/323446/

Free shipping for over $500 order, IIRC.

Please don’t go buy all of them and create new shortages!

After exploring this thread on what it costs, both money and downtime, to maintain an Avanti, I am pretty sure my Citation V will end up costing me less per mile while meeting those criteria. I can definitely fly 1500 nm, over 350 knots, with 8 people on board.

I will burn more fuel than the Avanti, but my maintenance profile seems vastly cheaper due to very long inspection intervals (3/6 years), local shops I can use (saves ferry costs, more competition), and vastly cheaper parts (aftermarket, used, large ecosystem).

Add in headwinds and recently lower fuel prices, it is even more clear. Add in downtime, or lack of availability, that's a pretty severe "speed" issue in itself.

The Avanti can have other redeeming features, but I don't think it actually wins the lowest cost per mile metric given the criteria and what I read about keeping it flying.

Mike C.

After exploring this thread on what it costs, both money and downtime, to maintain an Avanti, I am pretty sure my Citation V will end up costing me less per mile while meeting those criteria. I can definitely fly 1500 nm, over 350 knots, with 8 people on board.

I will burn more fuel than the Avanti, but my maintenance profile seems vastly cheaper due to very long inspection intervals (3/6 years), local shops I can use (saves ferry costs, more competition), and vastly cheaper parts (aftermarket, used, large ecosystem).

Add in headwinds and recently lower fuel prices, it is even more clear. Add in downtime, or lack of availability, that's a pretty severe "speed" issue in itself.

The Avanti can have other redeeming features, but I don't think it actually wins the lowest cost per mile metric given the criteria and what I read about keeping it flying.

Mike C.

On that route presently, FL430, 30 knot average headwind, 4:37 time, 4460 lbs, using LRC power.


Probably, Garmin upgrade removed 380 lbs, other mods have shaved off another 30 lbs or so. Empty now close to 9200 lbs. An autopilot upgrade should lower than down to under 9100 lbs when that becomes available. I suspect I can get close to 9000 lbs eventually.

16,100 lbs ramp weight, 1440 lbs passengers (8 x 180 lbs), leaves 5460 lbs for fuel, 1010 lbs reserve, which is adequate.

Some Vs come with a 400 lbs weight increase, then you get full fuel (5814 lbs) with 8 people, but would have to fly at FL400 for a bit of time to lighten up.

So my V can do it even into a 30 knot headwind. I usually beat book by some amount due to being generally tail heavy, though 8 people would put me more in the middle of the CG range.

Mike C.

No way Mike, at least at 200hrs per year. I looked hard at this last year. 150k-200k flies Avanti 200 hours per year, all in. I have run the math many many times. V or Ultra just doesn’t get there.

I looked at getting an Ultra. It’s an amazing plane. It costs at minimum 50% more. Given my main work missions are long flights w expensive fuel and I pay hangar psf, it’s even worse. I have yet to meet anyway who flies any jet 200hrs for less than 300k per year.

I wish I was wrong. Citation is slightly faster and more convenient to maintain. However, the cabin in Avanti is radically better and it’s much quieter. That matters to me.

So far, 3 years and 600 hrs, Avanti has been more reliable than mu2 over same interval and requires less inspections (200 hr 1 yr schedule works well for me). It also burns less fuel while going faster and carrying more.

I also paid so little for my plane, an Ultra in same condition was at least 50% more.

The jets might make more sense if you fly 100 hours. Fuel costs less impactful then.

I have a spreadsheet that compares them in detail - will dig up and post.

Please do!

So the $1K/hour for maintenance number that was posted in this thread is false? And the 6 month downtime that went with it? I based my assessment on those statements, so if they aren't true, then what I said isn't true.

Sounded like there was a LOT of inspections, overhauls, etc, to keep the Avanti operational. The inspection and maintenance program felt daunting.

$150K for 200 hours is $750/hour. That seems unreal based on what has been said in this thread, particular when fuel is probably $500/hour of that.


Ultras do cost more to get and more to operate. They have the more expensive JT15D-5D engines (HT blades very costly and wear out), and the are saddled with the Primus 1000 CRT system which is heavy and costly to repair.


I should tally up 2022 and see how I did.


Part of my lower cost is the LUMP that moves my phase 1-4 to 3 years, phase 5 to 6 years. That's a huge cost and downtime savings. Having to tear the pane apart every year is annoying.


I also paid very little for my V, but those economics have all changed for all of them. Looks like Ultras and Avanti are about $2.5M now, so similar price.


I'm about 150 hours/year. That's not all that much less miles than an Avanti at 200 hours, though.

Mike C.

2022 for N618K Citation V

122.1 hours, 80 landings, average leg 1.53 hours

Fuel: $116,633 for 23,957 gallons, $4.87 average, $3.20 cheapest, $7.58 highest, 196 GPH overall, $955/hour

Maintenance and parts: $37,789, $309/hour

Total: $154,422, $1265/hour

The maintenance included parts not used but retained for spares (ignitors, set of tires, etc, about $5000 worth). It also included a Phase 1-4 inspection (every 3 years), and an ACM overhaul (TBO 5000 hours). I was also fixing a number of "start up" issues with the plane earlier in the year since I had only been flying it for about 8 months at the time. Many of those issues were either caused by or not resolved by the factory service center that used to maintain the plane (like wrong ignitor leads, $2100 for parts).

Due to the LUMP, I'm not due for a significant inspection until late 2025 (phase 1-5). That's really nice!

Downtime in 2022 was just under 4 weeks namely to the ACM overhaul turn around time (sent my parts to be done, saved a lot of money over an exchange).

2022 was also high fuel costs, especially towards the end of the year. Fuel prices seem to be cheaper right now than then. I also tended to fly max thrust in 2022 (420 KTAS, whee!), I have since backed off some this year (400 KTAS or so). A 5% loss in speed is about 10% reduction in fuel usage.

My target was $1500/hour. Seems like I can probably attain that generally, especially if fuel prices abate as they have lately.

My numbers represent an involved frugal owner, with contract fuel programs, and using an independent local shop. If you pay list price for fuel and take the airplane to a factory service center, it could easily cost double my numbers, maybe more.

Mike C.

That’s great management Mike and I would expect nothing less. When I bought MU2, you shared your numbers w me and I pretty much hit or beat them every year!

Piaggio has a lot of used parts out there thanks to Avantair debacle.

I think it’s like any other complex turbine - luck impacts your costs quite a bit.

Piaggio definitely cheaper than jet on my missions, that is mainly due to fuel efficiency. I spent 92k on fuel last year. Ultra would be double that. Ultra also costs more to hangar (I pay psf). Those two things but a lot of Maint!

How many hours/miles was that?

Not sure the Ultra would be double, there is a noticeable speed advantage and the Ultra can fly to FL450 at gross weight (no step climbs).


V/Ultra is 2567 SF.

Avanti is 2181 SF.

Not a huge difference. I suspect the Citation packs better not having the nose surfaces, though I doubt they take that into consideration. Charging based on the enclosing convex polygon would be more fair, but no FBO can compute that.


But the Avanti seems to require a lot of maintenance. The posts in this thread are pretty discouraging to me on that front.

Mike C.