It was explained to me that you can sign away your rights but not other peoples.

So while a waiver might stop a lawsuit from you, other impacted people can still pursue a suit. Kids spouse, anybody who can show they have been negatively affected.

If you survive it is harder, but if you die it could get expensive quickly for the defendant.

What are some items that you would definitely want done on a prebuy? Boroscope of both engines for sure, full fuel leak test, all exterior panels removed to look for corrosion, etc.

I received a comprehensive list of items a shop would perform on a Prebuy and many of them would be done on a test flight such as pressurization check, function of all avionics, boots function test, etc. I don’t see the need to pay a shop $500-1000 a piece for each of these items when I or another pilot can easily press and test these functions during our test flight.


What I’m looking for is for a list of the things you would make sure were reviewed on the ground by a prebuy shop.

I would scope it for sure. I definitely wouldn't remove "all" exterior panels and probably wouldn't remove any; that's not where they corrode and there aren't many inspection panels on a Citation like there are a Bonanza. 501s just don't corrode if they've been "reasonably" hangared. I've bought parts planes that were rotting outside for 10+ years and they shockingly aren't very corroded. The only corroded ones I've seen lived outside in South Florida and I promptly dismembered them.

Then, function test everything on a test flight. A ground mechanic cannot properly assess the functionality of these systems better than a smart pilot can on a test flight. Most all Citations dribble a little fuel so I wouldn't get too excited about some minor leaks. You can top it off and avoid the ones that need buckets.

Engines are the most important part. The plane is basically free as long as the engines are good.

Definitely check pressurization on the test flight. Get up to 360 or so and make sure it will hold on each engine alone (ideally you have a cellular iPad that will report actual cabin pressure in Foreflight). Then put it back on both, do a flight idle descent, and make sure it still holds (door seals have a tendency to depressurize in this scenario - happened to me last week).

Check under the lav for any signs of blue juice corrosion. If you buy the plane, never use blue juice - convert it to a dry system. There should be posts about it in this thread. Yes, you should read all 146 pages of this thread. Twice. Just don't look at the prices at the beginning.

Check the hydraulic sub panel (just in front of the rear baggage door on the left side). Give it a good once-over and look for any hydraulic fluid. Also check the rear belly for any peeling paint - Skydrol eats paint so that will help tell you if anything's leaking back there.

Make sure the windshield bleed air knobs turn (and move the doors) and that the rain lever works - then test the windshield bleed air system.

Chase, can't stress this highly enough. There's no such thing as a squawk free airplane and you really need to understand what you're starting with.

Is the seller ok with a test flight long enough to check all of the systems? Pressurization, Heat, A/C, Deice, Anti Ice, Autopilot, Coupled approaches, etc.

Oil leaks can be cheap (check valves) or painful (oil pumps). Same with fuel and hydraulic leaks. Do you get to see where it's been parked for a couple days?

Do you have an experienced Citation pilot to accompany you? Who do you have reviewing the logs?

I’m 50/50 on the test flight personally. I would definitely borescope the engines and look behind inspection panels. Almost all of the systems can be functionally tested on the ground. I would operate the aircraft on the ground and do those functional checks, all of them. That would provide a pretty good picture of the airplane. The test flight is a bonus if you still want to buy it but not totally necessary, respectfully.

I understand what your saying Nishant but without some serious test equipment it would be difficult to test altitude preselect, coupled approaches, etc without the test flight.

While you can check and make sure the cabin is pressurizing on the ground it would not be smart to try and take it to max differential and impossible to check that the rate controller is following climb and descent schedules.

When its 100 deg on the ground its hard to see if the heating system is adequate etc.

Just my thoughts and opinion that a test flight is mandatory for a non-heavily discounted purchase price.

I'm an avionics tech/engineer that designs ground test equipment, and I'll be the first to say that a test flight is quicker and better than testing avionics on the ground for most systems.

I understand what your saying Nishant but without some serious test equipment it would be difficult to test altitude preselect, coupled approaches, etc without the test flight.

While you can check and make sure the cabin is pressurizing on the ground it would not be smart to try and take it to max differential and impossible to check that the rate controller is following climb and descent schedules.

When its 100 deg on the ground its hard to see if the heating system is adequate etc.

Just my thoughts and opinion that a test flight is mandatory for a non-heavily discounted purchase price.

This is an interesting discussion. Just to be clear, I said I was 50/50 on the value of a test flight. I do think it has value but I think the ground tests yield better information. That is my opinion. If I had to value ground inspection versus test flight, to me it would be 80/20. After a thorough ground inspection I have a really good impression about an airplane. Then if a test flight is conducted, I might get some additional information but the bulk of it I already know.

All of the items suggested thus far I can check on the ground in less time and more easily than a test flight. Pressurization, rate controller, autopilot servos, pre-select, ACM, a/c, heating system (that's funny), cross feed valves, etc. More importantly, I believe I can test them better on the ground because I can climb into the hell hole and put my hands on them. The fully coupled autopilot approach is the one thing I cannot test on the ground. Totally agree there.

Totally get you, respectfully have different experience. As these planes age they sometimes do weird things in flight only.

Have one right now that only has a pitch issue in the teens and flight levels. Passes all function checks on the ground and is absolutely rock solid from rotation to the teens.

Sometimes everything checks out and the plane still simply misbehaves. Then you find the cheap butt splice someone did 15 years ago, but I digress.

Also overlooked are the logs...the amount of ICA's not complied with is wild.

Edit: Yes agree not enough time is spent in the hellhole.

Have you checked cable tensions and looked at the trim tab actuator?

Agree on the ICA.

I had an AP pitch oscillation in cruise that we could not figure out. Only happened in the higher flight levels. Ended up being cable tension and pulley issues.

Nishant might be onto something. Haha.

Mike

You must fly the plane to properly test all sorts of things.

I'd skip a prebuy before I would skip a proper test flight.

Mike C.

Thanks Mike and Nishaunt, this was a tough puzzle.

Cable tensions (checked three times with three different calibrated tensiometers), AP computer swapped multiple times, FD Computer swapped multiple times, VG swapped, Trim actuator inspected twice, Trim Switch wiring repaired, ALT preselect swapped, AP control head swapped, Attitude indicator wiring repaired, ISS analog converter swapped, ADC altimeters swapped, Pitch servo swapped. All swapped units known good.

It will require one more flight test tomorrow, but we have a high degree of confidence that there were 2 pitch squawks occurring simultaneously...the VG and the FD computer. Jet Tech were a big help with this one.