Legal obligation?? Where does it say in the regs that mechanics should hold airplanes hostage? You have a legal obligation to give them a logbook entry stating the work you performed and return their aircraft to them. What happens after that is up to them.

Interesting conversation. As an aircraft owner I see both sides of the argument.

One of the things that people do not understand is the lawsuit happy world that when something goes wrong everyone involved get sued.

You can justify letting someone take an unworthy aircraft but if they crash you will find yourself in a very ugly deal. Until you have been part of a lawsuit like that you have no idea the hell it is. Even if you did absolutely nothing wrong you can lose everything. I had this happen to me and had to deal with the stress for over a year until the case was settled. I don’t wish that on my worst enemy.

One thing I learned is you can not sign your rights away. Even if
You sign something saying you take 100% responsibility for what happens if you take the plane it does not matter in court. So the bottom line is the shop is putting themselves in a very risky position by allowing a dangerous plane to leave.

Obviously like everything there are lots of variables to these deals so probably both sides are right.

Full disclosure John has my plane right now starting my 1-5 so this is even more interesting to me, Haha I trust him and know he would be fair if something comes up. He and Zach are very knowledgeable and they “get it”. I feel like they are a great balance for an owner like myself. I am sure Nishant is also very good at what he does and offers value. I have worked with a lot of different level of shops from Duncan and WestStar to smaller shops like John and Nishant.

Mike

It remains to be seen, but I think the a recent high profile Citation crash is going to change how shops are going to view logbook entries regardless of the regs.

Can you be more specific?

Mike C.

There is a subtle nuance here that is being missed, which is the role of the DAR/DER/Textron engineering. They carry that liability we are talking about. Again, I don’t make decisions about airworthiness. That’s the owner, a DAR/DER, and perhaps a MEL if one is available and applicable.

“Why did you let that airplane go?”
“The manufacturer said it was good to fly despite our concerns.”

John K is a great guy. We are having a spirited discussion, but I know he does great work and takes care of people. We all do!

Can you be more specific?

Mike C.

Nishaunt you're 100% correct period/end of story.

Having said that, with the hard insurance market, speculative and far reaching media reports, deep pocket litigation, etc...I think that shops who shouldn't be dragged into things will find themselves in the thick of things anyway.

Maybe have the operator/owner sign a release that documents the deficiencies in the aircraft, including a recommendation not to fly, along with acknowledgement that FAA regulations do not grant the shop the right to ground an airplane on their own accord.

If they crash, then this becomes exhibit 1 in the trial. It will have to be admitted into evidence since it is the only document that exists showing the airworthiness of the airplane, something the plaintiff wants to establish.

The shop cannot legally ground the airplane, though many act like they can.

Mike C.

Not to get too side tracked but that’s not how lawsuits always work. Most are settled before they get to court where you get to submit exhibit 1

I was involved in a fatality incident in our offroad racing. The guy that died signed a release stating what he was doing was dangerous and released the racing org of any liability if he was hurt or killed. That document was useless and they still went after the racing org. It cost the racing org a lot to defend themselves and it never went to court. It almost put the org out of business. Actually the owner of the org sold and moved on after this as it was so stressful to deal with. It was a year of hell for everyone involved and nobody did anything wrong.

It’s easy to sit back and say you have a good case if you have some signed doc. But when the crap hits the fan things get ugly and expensive fast. Until you have gone through something like this you have no idea how insane, stressful, and nonsensical it is.

Mike

Thanks Mike!

Still shocked at the real world difference in performance between your Williams 501 and my Pratt 501.

John thanks.

Haha don’t get Mike C started. He thinks my plane is a pig. Was true at 385 on the way to you and it was burning just over 1000lbs per hour down at FL340. It’s not super fast but fast enough for me. The trip was 1:25 and I burned 1600lbs total. I am happy with my Eagle II performance and efficiency.

There is always something faster and “better”.

Stand by while Mike C proves why his plane would be better for that trip. Hehe

Mike

Thanks for being a voice of reason and sanity.

Honestly Mike, I think you have the quickest Eagle I've seen. 385ktas on a hot day is really hauling the mail.

Yeah, somebody crashed his motorcycle at a Laguna Seca track day about 10 years ago and sued. He eventually lost but it took 7 years and I think the only reason was because a defense attorney was an experienced motorcycle racer and used that knowledge to put together an outstanding defense.

It was explained to me that you can sign away your rights but not other peoples.

So while a waiver might stop a lawsuit from you, other impacted people can still pursue a suit. Kids spouse, anybody who can show they have been negatively affected.

If you survive it is harder, but if you die it could get expensive quickly for the defendant.