I'm new to 501 ownership- but I find the brake feel to be linear and predictable. I have power brakes and anti-skid. I've never hit the brakes hard enough to trigger the anti-skid i don't think. But I think they are well designed compared to other planes I fly.

I walked away from my 501 deal because the seller wouldn’t allow me to move the airplane to complete a prebuy at my expense. I found this completely unreasonable and told them I’m out if I can’t move it. They promptly told me to get lost. Very disappointing! Am I being unreasonable?

Hi Chase,

This is a tough one. We have talked about it in some of the Chip threads.

What did you actually promise the seller? Here is their fear: You take their plane to some random (as far as they are concerned) shop. This shop takes the plane apart. Things are found and there is disagreement as to whether they are airworthiness items or discretionary. The buyer walks away from the deal with the plane in pieces at a foreign shop. It is now being held hostage by the foreign shop that claims the aircraft is unairworthy and so the seller must either fly a mechanic to put it back together or pay the foreign shop the ransom money.

If I was a seller I would demand enough money up front to be able to handle any contingencies and to get the plane back to my field/shop in the event the buyer walks away. Another option is to agree on a neutral shop (this is likely why folks like Chip push for "big name" shops as they should be more "fair" in determining what the issues really are).

I am not giving you any kind of legally binding advice, but the next time I buy a plane, I will fly my airframe mechanic and my engine mechanic to the plane. Have my airframe mechanic pull panels and check for corrosion and such and have the engine mechanic do a visual inspection and borescope on wing. Do ground runs to verify pressurization, bleed air system and then a demo flight to do the same along with other systems checks. The seller should have no issue with this as it will be at home base and there is no possibility of the plane being deemed unairworthy. The seller could (and likely should) have their mechanic shadow the buyer's mechanic to answer any questions, give their view on any findings, etc.

My $0.02 anyway.

I call this a non refundable deposit. It comes off the sale price, but if you walk, you don't get it back.

It is enough to cover my expenses (flying the plane, hotel, flying it back, and possibly having to make the shop whole if the buyer walks on them).

This means the buyer has to be serious, too. If they balk at this, then I know they aren't serious and not to waste time on them. There are a LOT of non serous buyers out there which is why sellers balk at things that cost them money and time.

For the seller, there is a lot of risk in a prebuy which comes for a highly variable standard of what is "airworthy". A Textron factory service center might condemn $300K of landing gear parts that another shop think is fine (this is not exaggeration, it really happened to someone). Then there can be a squawk they want $150K to fix, but you can have your local guy do it for much less, but the plane is now apart and sitting unairworthy at the FSC. You can ferry it home, but that's a hassle, and only works if your mechanic will sign off on the ferry permit.


There are issues with this, as well. Many mechanics don't have the time or willingness to operate on the ramp at some distant airport, lacking their tools and facilities. Any mechanic who is an expert in the type almost surely won't have the time since their expertise is in high demand.

I bought my airplane without a prebuy but I had a borescope, a very thorough test flight, and I studied the maintenance status in depth. Still, it had lots of subtle things wrong with it that would have likely escaped a normal prebuy. After almost 5 years, nothing significant has come up that would have been found in a prebuy inspection. There are plenty of counter examples out there as well. And lastly, there are those who had decent prebuy inspections who later found something serious.

For the most part, a plane like a Citation is maintained to a very high standard and some huge lurking problem inside it is very rare.

Mike C.

On the Savvy/AOPA podcast, they were talking about a trend towards "mobile prebuys". Seller's shop opens up the airplane for inspection, prebuy mechanic shows up (with no tools beyond a borescope) and does the inspection. Seller's mechanic can observe and provide the seller with their take on any findings. Prebuy does not affect the airworthiness, it is just a report provided to the buyer, and the plane doesn't end up stuck anywhere at a remote field.

Had one of those rarities with an S550 that came to us for a Phase 1-4 (we weren't involved in the prebuy) and we had to do significant corrosion remediation behind the TKS panels.

If that plane had been flown somewhere for prebuy it definitely would have been grounded.

Airworthiness is determined by the pilot in command, not by the maintenance facility. We don’t ground aircraft at my shop. I find that to be a slimy tactic. What we do is document our findings and provide them to the owner/PIC so they can make an informed decision on airworthiness. Then, even if the decision is to do nothing, we get the DAR and DER into our shop so a ferry permit can be issued. We support aircraft and owners regardless of the circumstances.

Try convincing the factory service center of this. I'd like to hear that conversation.

Mike C.

Ergo, slimy. The wrong sentiment altogether.

(Not directed at you or anybody specific for that matter.)

You've haven't seen a bad enough plane yet, and they're out there.

There's a line somewhere between "missing placard" and "engine is about to fall off" you'll make a determination that you're not putting it back together and not letting it fly out.

Unequivocally, no. I will never do that.

Refusing to put an airplane back together is holding an airplane hostage.

Kindly informing the owner that we cannot sign off on their inspections, putting their Airplane back together, and assisting to obtain a ferry permit is professional.

Unequivocally, no. I will never do that.

My goodness, of course I care about my neighbors! That is exactly why we loop in a DAR/DER and Textron engineering to ensure an airplane can fly safely on a ferry permit.

Here's the kicker, I help with ferry permits more frequently for airplanes trying to escape other shops that are holding them hostage so they can get their airplane taken care of at an honest price. Just last week my DAR was getting yelled at by a shop owner screaming, "It isn't airworthy!!!" because of a dent in the heated leading edge panel. Classic!

Regarding the airpark, yes! I have a commercial hangar at a private runway/airpark. (We don't work on airplanes in my garage.) Owning my hangar and the land underneath allows me to do some great things for clients like no markup on parts, which I prove with complete transparency on every invoice. That saves people thousands and thousands of dollars.

You are exemplifying many of the reasons why I decided to open my own place. Thank you!

Nobody said you "work on airplanes in your garage" and yes, of course owning your own hangar and the land underneath it has potential economic advantages. You have a business model to generate profits from your customers by charging them time and materials and you choose not to mark up the materials. It's not unique and there's nothing better or worse about it. It's simply your favored revenue model. However, what you don't have is a de facto moral or ethical high ground over all the other service providers in the Citation space; despite your relentless self promotion on various forums. *Unless you're doing all of this strictly for giggles; in that case I apologize and my hat's off to you.

Don't thank me, you can rest assured that I don't exemplify any of the reasons you chose to open your own shop and you certainly don't know anything about my business. Candidly, what I do is not dissimilar to your operation; I have a 1942 hangar that still says Carnegie USA on the roof girders and the services we provide offer tremendous value to our customers.

I'm quite proud of what we've turned it into but I understand that some customers want a much higher level of infrastructure and tooling investment than I am currently offering and some customers want less. That doesn't make me better or worse than the former or the latter.

For absolutely clarity, yes...if an airplane is legitimately unairworthy and unsafe to fly we won't put it back together without the required repairs. That's the minimum ethical, moral and legal obligation.