I remember when I demoed an M2, that the fuel burn was 2000 pounds per hour on takeoff. Thinking with the tanks in my Meridian I could do one lap around the aerodrome, come back into the pattern in land with minimum fuel. :-)

No question Meridian hauls and uses way less fuel than a Jet. It's also slower and can only go so far on that fuel.

My max fuel is 4500lbs LOL but that gets me over 1800nm if I need it. Have done it a few times. Made it from UT to Florida nonstop both ways.

Again I think everyone agrees a Meridian is cheaper than a 501 or any light jet. But I will say it again the overall annual ownership is not that far off when you factor capital cost and fuel.

That being said I am sure I am paying more per year to fly my plane than I would to fly a M600. I should hope so anyway. The added performance, safety, and comfort should cost something.

edit- I love these debates. Fact is we are all right. Charles loves the M Class and he is right, it's perfect for him and perfect for many others. It's all a trade off there is no perfect plane for everyone. Thats why nobody will ever win a debate about different models of airplanes. Which is pretty cool really.

Mike

I am also several inches shorter than you Michael. I was always impressed that you fit in the Mirage, quite some degree of athleticism

Anyway, it has been fun to hear about your evolution through the various air frames. I have enjoyed yours, and Mike C’s reports.

Isn't that scary?

But what happens is that you climb so quickly to altitude that the time spent with those high fuel flows is very small. So the next effect isn't all that great. The fuel flow is decreasing the entire time you are climbing.

If you ever level off, the speed builds very rapidly so you have to throttle back. You simply can't stay at those high fuel flows for any length of time.

Your PT6 on takeoff also has dramatically higher fuel flow than the rest of the flight, so this should be familiar to you, albeit lower numbers.


Well, no. You will *very* quickly get to pattern altitude and be pulling the power *way* back to enter the pattern. So the takeoff fuel flow lasts 1 minute or so.

I've taken off on a runway, made a 180 degree turn in the climb to get on course, and was at 7000 ft when the turn was completed. Example case:

Climbing through 7400 ft, going 230 knots, climbing 3000 fpm.

This was near max takeoff weight, BTW, and had 9 people on board (most ever). 1:56 to cover 836 nm (wind aided by about 70 knots).

The 501 won't perform quite as well, but still pretty good.

Mike C.

Haha yeah it’s been a journey. I have also really enjoyed Mike C’s experience. So thankful he takes the time to share.

To be honest I was more comfortable in the Mirage up front by myself as I could stretch my legs out to the other side. Really the 421 was the most comfortable.

In the 501 I am pretty cramped and that was after modifications to seat and seat position.

I have on a few occasions got cramps in the 501. But the good thing is I am not in there very long.

Getting in and out of the 501 is not easy either I bet it’s pretty close to the M-class.

For those that don’t know I am 6’5” 265lbs.

Mike

I was seriously considering a Meridian and came close to buying one. In some ways I wish I did as this was 2017 and I was looking at a 2004 model for 800k. Now it's probably worth 1.2m or more. I just couldn't haul my load and couldn't fit well at 6'4.. my 15 year old boy is already 6'6... my 13 year old is 5'10 and my wife is 5'11... we usually bring a lot of stuff + a 90 lb golden retriever. I just couldn't figure out a way to make everything fit even on short hops. Also it was supremely uncomfortable for me and I would have had to make seat modifications to even fit. I ended up buying something that just tugged at the heart strings and it's served me well and in truth my Tbone is everything I need and more.

I also agree with what Alex Henderson said... turbines need a job. I also fly a pc12 professionally and the owner lets me use it. I only use it maybe 1-2x per year usually when I want to take 8. For your mission any piston that will haul you around the country in comfort will do. Stop and smell the roses along the way if you're not on a schedule. 2-3 hour legs will take you to a ton of great stops, and turbine speeds don't matter at those distances. Enjoy the view, there is no need for a turbine or a jet for this "fun summer" mission. Get a 36 or a Cirrus or something like that and spend the $ on restaurants, hotels and activities. have fun!

Come on Adam. Haha what fun is that? We need to spend money on planes not food and hotels. Hehe

I looked hard at Meridian for a long time. Just could not afford a nice one and like you have a larger family. Two boys taller than me. I didn’t want to go twin at all. Then finally talked myself into a 421. Large cabin, quite, good useful load, etc. really was a great plane in all aspects. But for me it was stressful to fly, I was nervous on departure. Watching those engines like a hawk waiting for something to go wrong. That’s why I ended up with a jet and I was right. I am so much more comfortable and confident flying the jet.

That being said the 421c was hard to beat and my family absolutely loved it.

Mike

Analysis is pretty simple - my typical trip eastbound is 1400 to 1600 nm. A 501 can only make that with tailwinds averaging in the 80+ range for the whole trip.

For a typical trip with 60 kt average winds, the B200 will make the 1600 nm trip in 4:36 using 2,439 lbs of fuel.

The 501 will have to stop. Using the same wind data, the first leg comes out at 2:04 using 1,893 lbs and the second leg is 2:08 using 1,925 lbs. That's 1379 lbs more fuel, and the turn will need to be 24 minutes just to break even. My typical single-hose self serve turns are 30-40 minutes from wheels down to wheels up - and if there's weather at the refueling point, it sucks. There are very few places where twin hose full serve fuel is the cheapest (KDUX is one, if you're ever in the area.)

Westbound, it's likely both planes will stop. I make it nonstop about 15% of the time westbound when I have just 1400 nm to go. For my particular needs, the eastbound trip time is much more important than the westbound trip time. I'm willing to pay much more to save an hour eastbound than I am to save an hour westbound.

My analysis shows my trips *do* need a longer range plane than a stock 501 - but moving past a 501 will kill any thought of cost parity with the B200. I keep looking at the Sierra mods, the SII, the V, etc - but I can't find a solution that works for me. I'm choosing not to spend more on flying at this point. If 1000 nm was good enough, I'd be in an MU-2.

B200 is an amazing aircraft. That was on my short list when looking to upgrade from the 421. Actually put two offers in but didn’t happen. Was still a little concerned with twin turboprop on departure but less so than the 421.

The 501 Eagle II can do your trip nonstop. Which is why I ended up with one.

Mike

Agree that's tight. So 15 minutes more for the 501 would be realistic.


You will save way more than 15 minutes on the westbound trip in the 501, particularly if winds are strong. So net, the 501 wins on the round trip.

What you describe is basically my test mission, go 1600 nm both ways with higher reliability of non stop.

The only plane the CLEARLY does that non stop all the time is a Williams converted SII. Those are rare, and they do have some issues. I nearly bought one but ended up passing on it.

I went for the V instead and I am glad I did. For my 1600 nm mission, I am non stop eastbound almost all the time. I am non stop westbound most of the time in the summer, and almost never in the winter. The overall non stop reliability is about 75%. That's good enough.

By getting a stock V, I could buy it a lot cheaper than the Williams SII, and Textron would allow it on a LUMP program to greatly reduce inspection costs (Williams conversions don't get this option from what Textron told me).

None of the other stock legacy Citations come close.

A plane that may work for you is a Stallion, a Williams converted 501. Has about 1500 nm still air range which means a 1600 nm eastbound trip is likely. Uses less fuel, flies faster. Typically about $1M to buy, though they don't come up all that often.


1600 nm eastbound with a 60 knot tailwind is about 4400 lbs fuel and 3:40 in my V.

Given your tolerance for going westbound, a turboprop works but it can be a long day when those 100+ knot headwinds roar all day right in your face.

Mike C.

Mike C

I know on paper you think the Eagle II is slow but in the real world it's performing pretty well on long legs.

We have made the trip from Provo to St Petersburg couple times. the trip was always over 1800nm. All eastbound non stop and 1 westbound non stop. When I bought the plane Michael Tarver and I flew from Orlando area to Provo westbound nonstop which was over 1800nm.

Fuel burn for me is much less than what you see in your V for longer trips.

Mike

This impression comes from test flying an Eagle II and a Stallion.

The Eagle II just had a really hard time going past M 0.63 or so. It basically couldn't at FL410. Now maybe something was wrong with the one I tested, but it didn't seem so. We were not very heavy, either, about 2000 lbs under gross.

The Stallion runs right up to M 0.70 or close to it. Seemed far more sprightly.

The only difference between the two is that the Eagle II has the added fuel "hump". Due to the speed difference and heavier weight of carrying more fuel, the Eagle II wasn't as much extra range as one might imagine over the Stallion.

I talk to aerodynamic folks about this and they said the wing critical mach number, the point at which drag dramatically increases, is highly dependent on the relative thickness. The fuel hump, thus, will reduce the critical mach number quite a bit and that explains the increase in drag and less performance.

The fuel hump will make low speed handling better, the ability to create more lift at lower speeds, so it isn't all bad.


Yes, it would be. I go somewhat faster and carry more fuel, so my range is similar.

Mike C.

New video from the young guys owning a 501:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/hpFdPvedYuY[/youtube]

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N52 ... /KFFZ/KSEZ
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N52 ... /KSEZ/KFFZ

Pretty simple plane to fly.

They don't appear to know about contract fuel yet. KFFZ has a CAA FBO that would save them a bunch.

Total round trip flying time was 0h58m. Assigning $800/hour to non fuel expenses seems quite high to me but maybe that is the cost of things in AZ.

If you plan to do a lot of 100 nm burger runs, don't get a 501, but it can be used that way on occasion. If you want to fly 300 nm or more, then it's great for that.

Mike C.

I love jets (would love to own one) but also currently love our 2001 Piper Meridian (non gross weight, 4850lbs). Since the thread is about that, I'll try and talk you into a Meridian.

Lots of things to love about this plane especially depending on what you are coming from. We came from a Cirrus S22T G3. That was a fun plane but this really opened up the country for us to fly and explore.

The wife loves it. Our friends love to join us. The dog loves it. It just makes travel fun and enjoyable for short or long distances.

Things to Love:
PT6
Pressurization
750-800nm range with 2 people
Great short field performance
Good climb rate (1500+ ft per minute), especially at 133 kts IAS for ice penetration/weather concerns
Easy and enjoyable to fly
Fly low to short destinations or high, its great for either
Low Fuel Burn
Nice cabin space
A good about of storage

Things I wish were better or different:
Longer range
Insurance Rates
Consistency in the training programs
43' wingspan definitely makes hangar options more expensive and challenging
Maintenance: I maintain with an open checkbook but two annuals have both been $20K-$26K from a very reputable shop.

Some of my thoughts and experiences.

You will never get tired of the PT6 starting up. It also gives you a great sense of security knowing its up there. We are based on a 4000' field (18AZ) north of Scottsdale AZ and regularly fly night, over mountains, and in the Meridian, 98% of the time I have been over the weather. The Meridian loves FL250-280. Great spot to fly and usually, not much traffic.

I consider it a 800nm aircraft with full fuel in most conditions. Sometimes you can go further and sometimes shorter depending on winds. I have flown this year to Austin (2:50) and last summer home from Eugene OR (3:15) and have landed with no less than 50 gallons of fuel each time. With just me on board and a stiff headwind in January, I wasn't going make the OJC (Kansas City) to ABQ so diverted to Santa Fe. That was 616nm and I flew for 3:01.

With 4 people onboard, and assuming you plan to fly and take off legally, I think its really a 500nm aircraft. We flew from Pagosa Springs CO last July to drop our friends off at North Las Vegas (400nm) and we took off legally and I landed with 60 gallons of fuel with a slight headwind at FL280. I am not 100% sure I would be able to fly from PSO to So Cal with 4 people onboard in the Meridian which is 580nm or so direct.

40% of my flights are just me, about 40% of my flights are me and one other (my wife or biz partner depending on the mission) and 20% more than 2.

I really wish it held another 40 gallons of fuel to make it a real 1000nm with two people but it doesn't unless you want to spend $2-$3M for the M600. I think I would buy a Mustang or CJ/CJ1 before I bought a TBM or M600 just because of the capital cost.

Overall, a great plane and a significant upgrade from anything Piston and not pressurized. I have had the Meridian since Oct 2021 and we did a completely new Garmin Panel (G500s, GTN750s, GFC 600 Auto Pilot) and new paint. I like this panel much better than the Cirrus Perspective (G1000). So much more flexabilty to have many screen views. Its as close to a G3000 you can get.

I don't think you can go wrong with a Meridian if it fits your mission.

Beautiful airplane! We have a Mooney are contemplating a Meridian. Our missions are FL to Chicago area and Long Island, NY and the Meridian for the most part won't make that trip, even with me and wife. Capital cost are keeping us from a M600 which would. TBM would, but they need to be older and maintenance is just going to be to much for a good 850 and it's twice the price. Want to fly at night for some of those trips and was thinking of twin, maybe a 58P, but I'd rather have the turbine. Considered MU2, but trying to stay away from 30+ older airframes that require specialized maintenance.

May just have to do the Meridian knowing there's always a stop. So many options, and confusing as heck.