10 Jun 2025, 15:57 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Talk me into / out of a Meridian Posted: 01 Mar 2023, 22:54 |
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Joined: 08/16/15 Posts: 3416 Post Likes: +4916 Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
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I am also several inches shorter than you Michael. I was always impressed that you fit in the Mirage, quite some degree of athleticism  Anyway, it has been fun to hear about your evolution through the various air frames. I have enjoyed yours, and Mike C’s reports.
_________________ Chuck Ivester Piper M600 Ogden UT
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Post subject: Re: Talk me into / out of a Meridian Posted: 01 Mar 2023, 22:59 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20309 Post Likes: +25448 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I remember when I demoed an M2, that the fuel burn was 2000 pounds per hour on takeoff. Isn't that scary? But what happens is that you climb so quickly to altitude that the time spent with those high fuel flows is very small. So the next effect isn't all that great. The fuel flow is decreasing the entire time you are climbing. If you ever level off, the speed builds very rapidly so you have to throttle back. You simply can't stay at those high fuel flows for any length of time. Your PT6 on takeoff also has dramatically higher fuel flow than the rest of the flight, so this should be familiar to you, albeit lower numbers. Quote: Thinking with the tanks in my Meridian I could do one lap around the aerodrome, come back into the pattern in land with minimum fuel. :-) Well, no. You will *very* quickly get to pattern altitude and be pulling the power *way* back to enter the pattern. So the takeoff fuel flow lasts 1 minute or so. I've taken off on a runway, made a 180 degree turn in the climb to get on course, and was at 7000 ft when the turn was completed. Example case: Attachment: n618k-climbing-turn.png Climbing through 7400 ft, going 230 knots, climbing 3000 fpm. This was near max takeoff weight, BTW, and had 9 people on board (most ever). 1:56 to cover 836 nm (wind aided by about 70 knots). The 501 won't perform quite as well, but still pretty good. Mike C.
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_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Talk me into / out of a Meridian Posted: 01 Mar 2023, 23:08 |
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Joined: 11/19/15 Posts: 1579 Post Likes: +1482 Company: Centurion LV and Eleusis Location: Draper UT KPVU-KVNY
Aircraft: N45AF 501sp Eagle II
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Username Protected wrote: I am also several inches shorter than you Michael. I was always impressed that you fit in the Mirage, quite some degree of athleticism  Anyway, it has been fun to hear about your evolution through the various air frames. I have enjoyed yours, and Mike C’s reports. Haha yeah it’s been a journey. I have also really enjoyed Mike C’s experience. So thankful he takes the time to share. To be honest I was more comfortable in the Mirage up front by myself as I could stretch my legs out to the other side. Really the 421 was the most comfortable. In the 501 I am pretty cramped and that was after modifications to seat and seat position. I have on a few occasions got cramps in the 501. But the good thing is I am not in there very long. Getting in and out of the 501 is not easy either I bet it’s pretty close to the M-class. For those that don’t know I am 6’5” 265lbs. Mike
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Post subject: Re: Talk me into / out of a Meridian Posted: 02 Mar 2023, 00:17 |
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Joined: 11/30/12 Posts: 4854 Post Likes: +5489 Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
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Username Protected wrote: Quote: I was looking at the increased GW because I'd have to stop *eastbound* sometimes, which would make a 501 slower than a B200. I'd be curious to see the details of that analysis. The faster climb and cruise speeds can make up for a ground stop on trips of enough length. And then you go westbound into a 100 knot headwind. Now higher speed is hugely important. Maybe your trip lengths need a longer range airplane than the 501. That's why I have a V. Mike C. Analysis is pretty simple - my typical trip eastbound is 1400 to 1600 nm. A 501 can only make that with tailwinds averaging in the 80+ range for the whole trip. For a typical trip with 60 kt average winds, the B200 will make the 1600 nm trip in 4:36 using 2,439 lbs of fuel. The 501 will have to stop. Using the same wind data, the first leg comes out at 2:04 using 1,893 lbs and the second leg is 2:08 using 1,925 lbs. That's 1379 lbs more fuel, and the turn will need to be 24 minutes just to break even. My typical single-hose self serve turns are 30-40 minutes from wheels down to wheels up - and if there's weather at the refueling point, it sucks. There are very few places where twin hose full serve fuel is the cheapest (KDUX is one, if you're ever in the area.) Westbound, it's likely both planes will stop. I make it nonstop about 15% of the time westbound when I have just 1400 nm to go. For my particular needs, the eastbound trip time is much more important than the westbound trip time. I'm willing to pay much more to save an hour eastbound than I am to save an hour westbound. My analysis shows my trips *do* need a longer range plane than a stock 501 - but moving past a 501 will kill any thought of cost parity with the B200. I keep looking at the Sierra mods, the SII, the V, etc - but I can't find a solution that works for me. I'm choosing not to spend more on flying at this point. If 1000 nm was good enough, I'd be in an MU-2.
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Post subject: Re: Talk me into / out of a Meridian Posted: 02 Mar 2023, 02:21 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20309 Post Likes: +25448 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: The 501 will have to stop. Using the same wind data, the first leg comes out at 2:04 using 1,893 lbs and the second leg is 2:08 using 1,925 lbs. That's 1379 lbs more fuel, and the turn will need to be 24 minutes just to break even. Agree that's tight. So 15 minutes more for the 501 would be realistic. Quote: Westbound, it's likely both planes will stop. You will save way more than 15 minutes on the westbound trip in the 501, particularly if winds are strong. So net, the 501 wins on the round trip. What you describe is basically my test mission, go 1600 nm both ways with higher reliability of non stop. The only plane the CLEARLY does that non stop all the time is a Williams converted SII. Those are rare, and they do have some issues. I nearly bought one but ended up passing on it. I went for the V instead and I am glad I did. For my 1600 nm mission, I am non stop eastbound almost all the time. I am non stop westbound most of the time in the summer, and almost never in the winter. The overall non stop reliability is about 75%. That's good enough. By getting a stock V, I could buy it a lot cheaper than the Williams SII, and Textron would allow it on a LUMP program to greatly reduce inspection costs (Williams conversions don't get this option from what Textron told me). None of the other stock legacy Citations come close. A plane that may work for you is a Stallion, a Williams converted 501. Has about 1500 nm still air range which means a 1600 nm eastbound trip is likely. Uses less fuel, flies faster. Typically about $1M to buy, though they don't come up all that often. Quote: I'm willing to pay much more to save an hour eastbound than I am to save an hour westbound. 1600 nm eastbound with a 60 knot tailwind is about 4400 lbs fuel and 3:40 in my V. Given your tolerance for going westbound, a turboprop works but it can be a long day when those 100+ knot headwinds roar all day right in your face. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Talk me into / out of a Meridian Posted: 02 Mar 2023, 15:40 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20309 Post Likes: +25448 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I know on paper you think the Eagle II is slow but in the real world it's performing pretty well on long legs. This impression comes from test flying an Eagle II and a Stallion. The Eagle II just had a really hard time going past M 0.63 or so. It basically couldn't at FL410. Now maybe something was wrong with the one I tested, but it didn't seem so. We were not very heavy, either, about 2000 lbs under gross. The Stallion runs right up to M 0.70 or close to it. Seemed far more sprightly. The only difference between the two is that the Eagle II has the added fuel "hump". Due to the speed difference and heavier weight of carrying more fuel, the Eagle II wasn't as much extra range as one might imagine over the Stallion. I talk to aerodynamic folks about this and they said the wing critical mach number, the point at which drag dramatically increases, is highly dependent on the relative thickness. The fuel hump, thus, will reduce the critical mach number quite a bit and that explains the increase in drag and less performance. The fuel hump will make low speed handling better, the ability to create more lift at lower speeds, so it isn't all bad. Quote: Fuel burn for me is much less than what you see in your V for longer trips. Yes, it would be. I go somewhat faster and carry more fuel, so my range is similar. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Talk me into / out of a Meridian Posted: 05 Mar 2023, 17:50 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20309 Post Likes: +25448 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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New video from the young guys owning a 501: [youtube]https://youtu.be/hpFdPvedYuY[/youtube] https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N52 ... /KFFZ/KSEZhttps://flightaware.com/live/flight/N52 ... /KSEZ/KFFZPretty simple plane to fly. They don't appear to know about contract fuel yet. KFFZ has a CAA FBO that would save them a bunch. Total round trip flying time was 0h58m. Assigning $800/hour to non fuel expenses seems quite high to me but maybe that is the cost of things in AZ. If you plan to do a lot of 100 nm burger runs, don't get a 501, but it can be used that way on occasion. If you want to fly 300 nm or more, then it's great for that. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Talk me into / out of a Meridian Posted: 05 Mar 2023, 18:02 |
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Joined: 10/23/19 Posts: 18 Post Likes: +10 Location: 18AZ
Aircraft: 2001 Piper Meridian
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I love jets (would love to own one) but also currently love our 2001 Piper Meridian (non gross weight, 4850lbs). Since the thread is about that, I'll try and talk you into a Meridian.
Lots of things to love about this plane especially depending on what you are coming from. We came from a Cirrus S22T G3. That was a fun plane but this really opened up the country for us to fly and explore.
The wife loves it. Our friends love to join us. The dog loves it. It just makes travel fun and enjoyable for short or long distances.
Things to Love: PT6 Pressurization 750-800nm range with 2 people Great short field performance Good climb rate (1500+ ft per minute), especially at 133 kts IAS for ice penetration/weather concerns Easy and enjoyable to fly Fly low to short destinations or high, its great for either Low Fuel Burn Nice cabin space A good about of storage
Things I wish were better or different: Longer range Insurance Rates Consistency in the training programs 43' wingspan definitely makes hangar options more expensive and challenging Maintenance: I maintain with an open checkbook but two annuals have both been $20K-$26K from a very reputable shop.
Some of my thoughts and experiences.
You will never get tired of the PT6 starting up. It also gives you a great sense of security knowing its up there. We are based on a 4000' field (18AZ) north of Scottsdale AZ and regularly fly night, over mountains, and in the Meridian, 98% of the time I have been over the weather. The Meridian loves FL250-280. Great spot to fly and usually, not much traffic.
I consider it a 800nm aircraft with full fuel in most conditions. Sometimes you can go further and sometimes shorter depending on winds. I have flown this year to Austin (2:50) and last summer home from Eugene OR (3:15) and have landed with no less than 50 gallons of fuel each time. With just me on board and a stiff headwind in January, I wasn't going make the OJC (Kansas City) to ABQ so diverted to Santa Fe. That was 616nm and I flew for 3:01.
With 4 people onboard, and assuming you plan to fly and take off legally, I think its really a 500nm aircraft. We flew from Pagosa Springs CO last July to drop our friends off at North Las Vegas (400nm) and we took off legally and I landed with 60 gallons of fuel with a slight headwind at FL280. I am not 100% sure I would be able to fly from PSO to So Cal with 4 people onboard in the Meridian which is 580nm or so direct.
40% of my flights are just me, about 40% of my flights are me and one other (my wife or biz partner depending on the mission) and 20% more than 2.
I really wish it held another 40 gallons of fuel to make it a real 1000nm with two people but it doesn't unless you want to spend $2-$3M for the M600. I think I would buy a Mustang or CJ/CJ1 before I bought a TBM or M600 just because of the capital cost.
Overall, a great plane and a significant upgrade from anything Piston and not pressurized. I have had the Meridian since Oct 2021 and we did a completely new Garmin Panel (G500s, GTN750s, GFC 600 Auto Pilot) and new paint. I like this panel much better than the Cirrus Perspective (G1000). So much more flexabilty to have many screen views. Its as close to a G3000 you can get.
I don't think you can go wrong with a Meridian if it fits your mission.
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Post subject: Re: Talk me into / out of a Meridian Posted: 05 Mar 2023, 18:34 |
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Joined: 01/07/21 Posts: 407 Post Likes: +393
Aircraft: M20J/R, Sr22, SR20
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Username Protected wrote: I love jets (would love to own one) but also currently love our 2001 Piper Meridian (non gross weight, 4850lbs). Since the thread is about that, I'll try and talk you into a Meridian.
Lots of things to love about this plane especially depending on what you are coming from. We came from a Cirrus S22T G3. That was a fun plane but this really opened up the country for us to fly and explore.
The wife loves it. Our friends love to join us. The dog loves it. It just makes travel fun and enjoyable for short or long distances.
Things to Love: PT6 Pressurization 750-800nm range with 2 people Great short field performance Good climb rate (1500+ ft per minute), especially at 133 kts IAS for ice penetration/weather concerns Easy and enjoyable to fly Fly low to short destinations or high, its great for either Low Fuel Burn Nice cabin space A good about of storage
Things I wish were better or different: Longer range Insurance Rates Consistency in the training programs 43' wingspan definitely makes hangar options more expensive and challenging Maintenance: I maintain with an open checkbook but two annuals have both been $20K-$26K from a very reputable shop.
Some of my thoughts and experiences.
You will never get tired of the PT6 starting up. It also gives you a great sense of security knowing its up there. We are based on a 4000' field (18AZ) north of Scottsdale AZ and regularly fly night, over mountains, and in the Meridian, 98% of the time I have been over the weather. The Meridian loves FL250-280. Great spot to fly and usually, not much traffic.
I consider it a 800nm aircraft with full fuel in most conditions. Sometimes you can go further and sometimes shorter depending on winds. I have flown this year to Austin (2:50) and last summer home from Eugene OR (3:15) and have landed with no less than 50 gallons of fuel each time. With just me on board and a stiff headwind in January, I wasn't going make the OJC (Kansas City) to ABQ so diverted to Santa Fe. That was 616nm and I flew for 3:01.
With 4 people onboard, and assuming you plan to fly and take off legally, I think its really a 500nm aircraft. We flew from Pagosa Springs CO last July to drop our friends off at North Las Vegas (400nm) and we took off legally and I landed with 60 gallons of fuel with a slight headwind at FL280. I am not 100% sure I would be able to fly from PSO to So Cal with 4 people onboard in the Meridian which is 580nm or so direct.
40% of my flights are just me, about 40% of my flights are me and one other (my wife or biz partner depending on the mission) and 20% more than 2.
I really wish it held another 40 gallons of fuel to make it a real 1000nm with two people but it doesn't unless you want to spend $2-$3M for the M600. I think I would buy a Mustang or CJ/CJ1 before I bought a TBM or M600 just because of the capital cost.
Overall, a great plane and a significant upgrade from anything Piston and not pressurized. I have had the Meridian since Oct 2021 and we did a completely new Garmin Panel (G500s, GTN750s, GFC 600 Auto Pilot) and new paint. I like this panel much better than the Cirrus Perspective (G1000). So much more flexabilty to have many screen views. Its as close to a G3000 you can get.
I don't think you can go wrong with a Meridian if it fits your mission. Beautiful airplane! We have a Mooney are contemplating a Meridian. Our missions are FL to Chicago area and Long Island, NY and the Meridian for the most part won't make that trip, even with me and wife. Capital cost are keeping us from a M600 which would. TBM would, but they need to be older and maintenance is just going to be to much for a good 850 and it's twice the price. Want to fly at night for some of those trips and was thinking of twin, maybe a 58P, but I'd rather have the turbine. Considered MU2, but trying to stay away from 30+ older airframes that require specialized maintenance. May just have to do the Meridian knowing there's always a stop. So many options, and confusing as heck.
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