04 May 2025, 20:38 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200! Posted: 06 Feb 2023, 21:32 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 7807 Post Likes: +10192 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: …. but I wouldn't buy a SETP because I thought the maintenance schedule was less onerous or that the inspections would be cheaper. In fact, IMHO the King Air schedule is simpler than the Pilatus or the TBM. Unfortunately, it's not just annuals on either. I would note that the Meridian has a great - and very affordable - maintenance schedule. Definitely an appeal of the plane and its one engine.
Yes! It’s definitely one of, if not the most economical turbine to operate.
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Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200! Posted: 06 Feb 2023, 23:37 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19937 Post Likes: +25006 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I would note that the Meridian has a great - and very affordable - maintenance schedule. The Meridian would default to the annual inspection rules under 91.409 being a single engine airplane. Does Piper publish another inspection program you can select? And if so, can you outline the major parts of the program? Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200! Posted: 06 Feb 2023, 23:51 |
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Joined: 08/23/10 Posts: 889 Post Likes: +710
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Username Protected wrote: I would note that the Meridian has a great - and very affordable - maintenance schedule. The Meridian would default to the annual inspection rules under 91.409 being a single engine airplane. Does Piper publish another inspection program you can select? And if so, can you outline the major parts of the program? Mike C.
Yes, Piper offers an alternative to the traditional annual inspection. It's a 100-hour Check 1 and Check 2 inspection. I can't enumerate what is included in the inspections, but I believe it essentially breaks the annual in half with a little bit of overlap. Results in less down time per event, but twice as often (or more depending on hours flown). I think it's required for Part 135.
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Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200! Posted: 07 Feb 2023, 22:52 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 7807 Post Likes: +10192 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Is this PLM phenomenon in the King Air unique to King Air, or is it a PT6 thing that happens to be installed on a lot of King Airs? It’s unique to King Airs, because of the placement of the fuel controllers on a PT-6, the cable going to the RH engine is longer, because it has to go to the outboard side of the motor. The left cable is shorter, the theory is that the left cable has less resistance because it’s shorter so it typically lets the power lever fall back quicker. Unfortunately, the left is the critical engine and since the movement disarms autofeather, you have a big unfeathered prop at the worst possible stage of flight. As pointed out, it gets worse on the 350 because the engines are further from the centerline and the right engine is producing 1050 shp in the words of Aubie Pearman “you got a big ass 1000 horsepower fan blowing air over the right wing and turning you sideways while it’s doing it” (I hope I got that quote right, it has been a few years, Boo will correct me if not)
Last edited on 07 Feb 2023, 23:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200! Posted: 07 Feb 2023, 22:59 |
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Joined: 07/16/12 Posts: 87 Post Likes: +73 Location: KHEF & KCPS
Aircraft: C501SP
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Username Protected wrote: I would note that the Meridian has a great - and very affordable - maintenance schedule. The Meridian would default to the annual inspection rules under 91.409 being a single engine airplane. Does Piper publish another inspection program you can select? And if so, can you outline the major parts of the program? Mike C.
What I meant is that maintenance was simple. One inspection, 3 weeks of downtime and 20k in maintenance costs was my experience owning the plane. Can’t speak to 135 ops.
The PC-12 and TBM - to Chip’s point - appear to have more complicated maintenance regimens, which would seemingly negate the advantage that comes with owning a SETP over a METP.
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Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200! Posted: 08 Feb 2023, 04:46 |
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Joined: 01/11/11 Posts: 1200 Post Likes: +610 Company: FUSION
Aircraft: B300ER B200 C90 DHC6
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Username Protected wrote: You mention the last six accidents, we suspect PLM in at least four of those, though it is near impossible to prove. If your instructors are at Flight Safety they will deny there is an issue. That is not my recent (over the last two years or so) experience at FSI or CAE. Good discussions in class concerning PLM. Brian, last year I was at one of two CAE training centers with the [new] PL21 & FUSION B350 level D sim. Probably a different training center than the one you attended.
None of the instructors there had heard, or were aware, of PLM.
When I raised the issue, they dismissed it.
When I suggested The King Air Book, none of them had heard about it. And, the training center manager (a FAA sim instructor) told me that it is not approved material and that they don’t follow gurus.
In my opinion, B350 PL21 & FUSION training at CAE was less than mediocre.
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Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200! Posted: 09 Feb 2023, 00:24 |
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Joined: 06/28/09 Posts: 14368 Post Likes: +9485 Location: Walnut Creek, CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1962 Twin Bonanza
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Username Protected wrote: There's a pretty common myth out there that Pilatus PC-12's and for that matter TBM's are cheaper to operate than King Airs... it simply isn't true.
The Pilatus is expensive to maintain, and parts prices will make even Textron blush.
Having flown and managed both I think it's quite a bit true. The pc12 is for sure cheaper to operate (as long as you don't count the cost of money).
_________________ http://calipilot.com atp/cfii
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Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200! Posted: 09 Feb 2023, 12:57 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 7807 Post Likes: +10192 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: There's a pretty common myth out there that Pilatus PC-12's and for that matter TBM's are cheaper to operate than King Airs... it simply isn't true.
The Pilatus is expensive to maintain, and parts prices will make even Textron blush.
Having flown and managed both I think it's quite a bit true. The pc12 is for sure cheaper to operate (as long as you don't count the cost of money).
I will allow that if you take the King Air to Textron and the Pilatus to a Pilatus Service Center they are about the same... the difference is you don't have to take the King Air to the Textron, but you do have to take the Pilatus to a service center.
It also depends on the age of the aircraft, our clients who are in late model Pilatus PC-12NG's enjoy low op cost because it burns about 75% of the fuel the King Air does, albeit 25 knots slower, and maintenance isn't bad because the expensive parts aren't being replaced yet. Once we get into the older airplanes, the cost of big ticket items really starts to become a factor. A great example is one of our clients who moved from a 2000 PC-12/45 to a Citation M2, he raved about the M2 and how much cheaper it was to operate than the PC-12.
It's not a knock on the PC-12, but a knock on the misconception that people create. The TBM world is even worse... I hear all the time... "how much does it cost to maintain a TBM?" and then someone says "$30k a year, it's just an annual." Bullcrap.
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Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200! Posted: 09 Feb 2023, 13:36 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 7807 Post Likes: +10192 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Is there really that much difference in speed? My M600 is about the same speed as a PC 12 and times when I’ve been in front of, or in trail of a king air 200 typically matching their speed within rounding error. But then the PC12s sometimes seem to be operating a little bit below advertised speed as well. I guess they’re different versions of the 200/250 with different engines and modifications. Any King Air 200 series newer than 2008 is a 300kt airplane, King Air 350 is about 295. You can still find some older 200 / B200's that haven't been upgraded with Blackhawk engines that are only 270 - 275 kts.
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Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200! Posted: 09 Feb 2023, 13:55 |
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Joined: 08/23/10 Posts: 889 Post Likes: +710
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So, what does it cost to maintain a KA200? Not at Textron, but at smaller guru shops? I know it all depends on what overhauls are due, but if you average it all together, approximately what does a 200 cost to maintain for 150-200 hours per year?
For a frame of reference in what I'm including, my Meridian is about $30K per year at PA46 guru shops. $10K for inspections, $3K for ICA's and miscellaneous SB's, $10K for squawks and $7K for overhauls (prop, FCU, generator, windshield, etc. - averaged/amortized), not including the engine, I figure that as a DOC. With that structure in mind, best I've been able to determine a TBM is about $75K per year and I've believe a PC-12 is around that $75K also. What does a 200 average when including the overhauls, etc?
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Post subject: Re: Bought a PC-12 - still miss the B200! Posted: 09 Feb 2023, 14:19 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 7807 Post Likes: +10192 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: So, what does it cost to maintain a KA200? Not at Textron, but at smaller guru shops? I know it all depends on what overhauls are due, but if you average it all together, approximately what does a 200 cost to maintain for 150-200 hours per year?
For a frame of reference in what I'm including, my Meridian is about $30K per year at PA46 guru shops. $10K for inspections, $3K for ICA's and miscellaneous SB's, $10K for squawks and $7K for overhauls (prop, FCU, generator, windshield, etc. - averaged/amortized), not including the engine, I figure that as a DOC. With that structure in mind, best I've been able to determine a TBM is about $75K per year and I've believe a PC-12 is around that $75K also. What does a 200 average when including the overhauls, etc? Broad range of maintenance cost on the 200 series since they have been built from 1974 until today. but assuming we are talking 20 years old or less to put them in the same vintage as the above, I would say $50k - $70k a year. If you take a King Air to a shop known for King Airs, like Stevens here in Nashville, you can probably expect your bill to be $40k or less on most years that you do the Phase 1&2 and then $50k - $70k on the years you do a Phase 3&4, then you have the 5/6 year items such as props and gear. That's getting you service center level maintenance cheaper than Textron, to my point there are a lot of great King Air shops that are smaller and more economical, which will get you closer to the $50k per year number.
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