02 Jun 2025, 22:41 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.  Posted: 13 Nov 2022, 20:23 |
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Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 7363
Post Likes: +4832
Location: Live in San Carlos, CA - based Hayward, CA KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
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Username Protected wrote: I've been using for 2 years. It's very good and I recommend it. What does it “do” that a PDF copy of the AFM doesn’t? Don’t mean to sound skeptical, just curious.
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-Jon C.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 13 Nov 2022, 21:11 |
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Joined: 01/01/22
Posts: 44
Post Likes: +4
Aircraft: Piaggio, Epic LT
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So will it work with new iPad pro?
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 14 Nov 2022, 09:37 |
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8673
Post Likes: +9182
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: I've been using for 2 years. It's very good and I recommend it. What does it “do” that a PDF copy of the AFM doesn’t? Don’t mean to sound skeptical, just curious.
You load your Moment, BEW, MTOW, Max Fuel, Engine once. To start flight planning you enter Departure and Arrival airport.
On next page you use data wheels to select runways, wind and OAT and indicate wet, dry or contaminated runway. On that page you can auto pull Metar into calcs if desired.
Next page is W&B. There is an entry box for each position. The app remembers the entries from last app use which is nice as most flights have same internal loading for me. Auto calculated: Dry operating weight, operating weight, total load, payload, zero fuel weight, remaining load capacity, remaining fuel capacity, Ramp weight, take off weight, take off ARM. Take off weight is shown graphically in the envelope.
Next page is performance data with four boxes: Take off distance which includes ground roll, total, accelerate stop, accelerate go, TOR required. It also gives you 1st seg, final seg, V1,V2, Vfr. Climb performancne with or without ICE on includes time t climb, fuel to climb distance to climb. Cruise and descent with max range, recommended, max cruise choice selected shows descent time, fuel to descend, distance to descend, cruise time, fuel used, fuel flow (based on cruise selection, TAS, Prop RPM based on cruise selection. Landing distance is calculated based on flap selection, icing on/off and with or without reverse. Calculated includes ground roll, landing distance, LD required and Vref.
Overview page includes a graphic of plane loading, summary of W&B and data for all flight segments.
In use it takes less than a minute for me to input all required data once I know the take off and landing airport Metar information and the relevant weights of all passengers, fuel and baggage. So, first advantage is its fast. Second is its highly accurate (not that I've ever made a calculation error in the myriad calcs, graph readings or interpolations required when using the AFM or POH), third is that you can make changes to weather, runway, loading, etc. and get immediate answers for tweaking or what if, fourth is that it puts all the information you need to set up and fly the flight on one page automatically on the device that I use constantly during the flight without having to write it down in my easy to read handwriting, keeping up with a slip of paper etc. Last is its convenient - its on my ipad I always have with me instead of a bunch of pages of paper.
But to answer your question it doesn't "do" anything I can't do with the AFM. It just does it faster and more reliably. I don't need it. But then I don't need a calculator either as I could always use an abacus, or my fingers and toes  (well, actually fingers and toes screws me up as I only have 9 toes  ). It does cost more than other, similar, calculators I have used flying other aircraft but then there's a pretty small user universe. I could also just skip doing the exercise like many pilots I know. After all I have dozens of flights under a variety of conditions, make the milk runs regularly, etc. so I already "know" the answers. But I don't want to fly that way.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 14 Nov 2022, 10:41 |
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Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 7363
Post Likes: +4832
Location: Live in San Carlos, CA - based Hayward, CA KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
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Username Protected wrote: What does it “do” that a PDF copy of the AFM doesn’t? Don’t mean to sound skeptical, just curious. … Next page is W&B. … Next page is performance data with four boxes: … Overview page includes a graphic of plane loading, summary of W&B and data for all flight segments. … But to answer your question it doesn't "do" anything I can't do with the AFM. It just does it faster and more reliably.
Thanks for the description. I am not a Luddite implying a calculator doesn’t have value!
I have a spreadsheet that calculates W&B (per station entry, graphic display). And I carry the AFM in PDF form on my iPad. But the performance calcs sound quite nice, and challenging to get right reliably every time, as you said.
Thanks for the PIREP.
_________________
-Jon C.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 14 Nov 2022, 10:50 |
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Joined: 09/26/09
Posts: 1470
Post Likes: +978
Company: ElitAire
Location: Columbus, OH - KCMH
Aircraft: Piaggio P180
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I'm a bit of a Foreflight disciple (glad to see Boeing hasn't messed it up!), so I'm entering most of the data there already, including W&B. I'd say it gets you 95% of the data with 50% of the effort (again, I"m biased).
Where I see the App being relevant is when you have an out of the normal situation. Say a slick or high DA runway, where the normal "I've got 5500' of runway, I"m good" isn't good and needs a closer look. Use the app or POH? If I've already got everything in Foreflight, I'll consult the POH for these situations, and I can reference what I have already done in Foreflght for data (take-off & landing weights, etc.)
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 14 Nov 2022, 11:59 |
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Joined: 01/01/22
Posts: 44
Post Likes: +4
Aircraft: Piaggio, Epic LT
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Username Protected wrote: I'm a bit of a Foreflight disciple (glad to see Boeing hasn't messed it up!), so I'm entering most of the data there already, including W&B. I'd say it gets you 95% of the data with 50% of the effort (again, I"m biased).
Where I see the App being relevant is when you have an out of the normal situation. Say a slick or high DA runway, where the normal "I've got 5500' of runway, I"m good" isn't good and needs a closer look. Use the app or POH? If I've already got everything in Foreflight, I'll consult the POH for these situations, and I can reference what I have already done in Foreflght for data (take-off & landing weights, etc.) I'm a big foreflight fan, not sure how fun flying would be without it. I love that foreflight has integrated these same features in for some planes and continues to add more planes all the time. Not sure how long it will be before they get the P180. I will purchase this just because I will be flying out of short runways and that information at the push of a button will be extremely valuable to me. Thanks, anyone know if this works on the ipad pro?
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 14 Nov 2022, 12:01 |
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Joined: 10/12/20
Posts: 311
Post Likes: +157
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I chatted with the developer last night. He admits it needs some love/refresh. We are discussing a "sponsor" to fund the dev work. If anyone is interested in joining, let me know. I don't know what his dollar amount is yet.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 14 Nov 2022, 12:07 |
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Joined: 01/01/22
Posts: 44
Post Likes: +4
Aircraft: Piaggio, Epic LT
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Username Protected wrote: I chatted with the developer last night. He admits it needs some love/refresh. We are discussing a "sponsor" to fund the dev work. If anyone is interested in joining, let me know. I don't know what his dollar amount is yet. So do you know which ipads and versions it currently works with now?
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 14 Nov 2022, 15:01 |
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8673
Post Likes: +9182
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: I'm a bit of a Foreflight disciple (glad to see Boeing hasn't messed it up!), so I'm entering most of the data there already, including W&B. I'd say it gets you 95% of the data with 50% of the effort (again, I"m biased).
Where I see the App being relevant is when you have an out of the normal situation. Say a slick or high DA runway, where the normal "I've got 5500' of runway, I"m good" isn't good and needs a closer look. Use the app or POH? If I've already got everything in Foreflight, I'll consult the POH for these situations, and I can reference what I have already done in Foreflght for data (take-off & landing weights, etc.) I'm a big foreflight fan, not sure how fun flying would be without it. I love that foreflight has integrated these same features in for some planes and continues to add more planes all the time. Not sure how long it will be before they get the P180. I will purchase this just because I will be flying out of short runways and that information at the push of a button will be extremely valuable to me. Thanks, anyone know if this works on the ipad pro?
I've been using Foreflight for years but have never done for W&B and only have the minimum of data loaded in my P180 profile. I did not realize you could get things like landing distance, stop or go distance, etc. in Foreflight.
I built a spreadsheet for W&B too when I first got the plane because I hadn't found an app and hadn't done all the various performance calcs for years because there were two excellent apps for the TBM and others for Cirrus and Bonanzas. I'm not lazy, I just like to be time efficient, and I'd prefer to leverage other's skills and talents rather than DIY where I can. At FlightSafety they make you do all the planning from the AFM charts and graphs. OMG what an unnecessary PITA. It's a bit like telling you you must use a slide rule instead of a calculator. I think a former FAA test designer must work there...
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 14 Nov 2022, 16:23 |
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Joined: 09/26/09
Posts: 1470
Post Likes: +978
Company: ElitAire
Location: Columbus, OH - KCMH
Aircraft: Piaggio P180
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm a big foreflight fan, not sure how fun flying would be without it. I love that foreflight has integrated these same features in for some planes and continues to add more planes all the time. Not sure how long it will be before they get the P180. I will purchase this just because I will be flying out of short runways and that information at the push of a button will be extremely valuable to me.
Thanks, anyone know if this works on the ipad pro?
I've been using Foreflight for years but have never done for W&B and only have the minimum of data loaded in my P180 profile. I did not realize you could get things like landing distance, stop or go distance, etc. in Foreflight. I built a spreadsheet for W&B too when I first got the plane because I hadn't found an app and hadn't done all the various performance calcs for years because there were two excellent apps for the TBM and others for Cirrus and Bonanzas. I'm not lazy, I just like to be time efficient, and I'd prefer to leverage other's skills and talents rather than DIY where I can. At FlightSafety they make you do all the planning from the AFM charts and graphs. OMG what an unnecessary PITA. It's a bit like telling you you must use a slide rule instead of a calculator. I think a former FAA test designer must work there...[/quote] ForeFlight does not do t/o & landing performance. It does do weight & balance and has performance calcs for fuel & distance that are sophisticated and accurate. My t/o & landing distance routine so far "If it's slick or high/hot, always dig in. If it's not slick, nor high/hot, 5500' is good". I've found flying the Piaggio almost every place I go is 5500'. I'm just no interested in squeezing into 4000' or less, and where I fly I've found if it's greater than 4000' it's probably 5500' or more...
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 14 Nov 2022, 16:49 |
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8673
Post Likes: +9182
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm a big foreflight fan, not sure how fun flying would be without it. I love that foreflight has integrated these same features in for some planes and continues to add more planes all the time. Not sure how long it will be before they get the P180. I will purchase this just because I will be flying out of short runways and that information at the push of a button will be extremely valuable to me.
Thanks, anyone know if this works on the ipad pro?
I've been using Foreflight for years but have never done for W&B and only have the minimum of data loaded in my P180 profile. I did not realize you could get things like landing distance, stop or go distance, etc. in Foreflight. I built a spreadsheet for W&B too when I first got the plane because I hadn't found an app and hadn't done all the various performance calcs for years because there were two excellent apps for the TBM and others for Cirrus and Bonanzas. I'm not lazy, I just like to be time efficient, and I'd prefer to leverage other's skills and talents rather than DIY where I can. At FlightSafety they make you do all the planning from the AFM charts and graphs. OMG what an unnecessary PITA. It's a bit like telling you you must use a slide rule instead of a calculator. I think a former FAA test designer must work there...
ForeFlight does not do t/o & landing performance. It does do weight & balance and has performance calcs for fuel & distance that are sophisticated and accurate.
My t/o & landing distance routine so far "If it's slick or high/hot, always dig in. If it's not slick, nor high/hot, 5500' is good". I've found flying the Piaggio almost every place I go is 5500'. I'm just no interested in squeezing into 4000' or less, and where I fly I've found if it's greater than 4000' it's probably 5500' or more...[/quote]
Interesting. I fly into 5,000 feet routinely. But that's my minimum.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 14 Nov 2022, 17:39 |
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Joined: 11/06/20
Posts: 1627
Post Likes: +1692
Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
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Username Protected wrote: ForeFlight does not do t/o & landing performance. It does do weight & balance and has performance calcs for fuel & distance that are sophisticated and accurate. Just to clarify for others, Foreflight does not do t/o and landing performance for the P180 currently. But it does for other aircraft and they claim to be adding more. Here is the list: https://foreflight.com/products/runway- ... ndividual/
Last edited on 14 Nov 2022, 23:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 14 Nov 2022, 20:05 |
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8673
Post Likes: +9182
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: ForeFlight does not do t/o & landing performance. It does do weight & balance and has performance calcs for fuel & distance that are sophisticated and accurate. Just to clarify for others, Foreflight does not do t/o and landing performance for the P180 currently. But it does for other aircraft and they claim to be adding more. Here is the list: https://foreflight.com/products/runway- ... ndividual/
And to clarify - I did not make the post above attributed to me - that was Matt. Cut and paste is a b!tch...
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 14 Nov 2022, 23:23 |
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Joined: 11/06/20
Posts: 1627
Post Likes: +1692
Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
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Username Protected wrote: And to clarify - I did not make the post above attributed to me - that was Matt. Cut and paste is a b!tch... Doh! Yeah, the forum software grumped at me for too many embedded quotes so I started cutting. Obviously screwed it up. Sorry Tony! I fixed my post.
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