BeechTalk - BT - Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Jun 2018, 16:49

Username Protected wrote:

Yesterday in my 525 I made a trip that I likely couldn't not have made without significant deviations and or delays. Jacksonville to Janesville WI over significant weather that ATC was re-routing everyone around. I went over at FL400. smooth ride. no drama.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26 ... /KJAX/KJVL

Those were some intense storms, we lost power for ~2 hours here in Evansville. Nice to be able to fly over/around them easily.

Jets are not just about speed, fuel, distance. They are about being significantly safer and being able to circumvent weather.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Jun 2018, 16:52

Username Protected wrote:

I went from a TN Bo to the Pilatus. The Pilatus is a big, fast TN Bo with tip tanks. I think I run it for less than the Bonanza.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Jun 2018, 17:06

Username Protected wrote:

Yesterday in my 525 I made a trip that I likely couldn't not have made without significant deviations and or delays. Jacksonville to Janesville WI over significant weather that ATC was re-routing everyone around. I went over at FL400. smooth ride. no drama.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26 ... /KJAX/KJVL

Those were some intense storms, we lost power for ~2 hours here in Evansville. Nice to be able to fly over/around them easily.

Jets are not just about speed, fuel, distance. They are about being significantly safer and being able to circumvent weather.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Jun 2018, 17:32

Username Protected wrote:

Really? On a per hour basis? How could that be?

Is it really so hard to believe? For starters, compare Avgas pricing to CAA JetA pricing. It's worse now than it was then.

On top of that, I had $30K annuals on the Tn Bonanza when jugs would be replaced and testing G1000 AP servos and replacing batteries etc. My TN BO was not inexpensive to operate.

The PC12 knocks an hour off of an Atlanta to Miami flight which is already a pretty short hop of 500 miles.

No, I don't count "cost of capital".

There are a number of reasons.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Jun 2018, 18:07

Username Protected wrote:

Jets are not just about speed, fuel, distance. They are about being significantly safer and being able to circumvent weather.

Mike C.

Which is the reason I got typed and have 60 hrs Jet this year. The problem is, after I sold my big twin I have yet to have many missions where I crossed the “need” threshold and my little TN Bo just keeps kicking butt. Having it as a ready to fly option is going to limit my jet time, but it also eliminates the thought of driving or airlines.

My point is it makes a great partner for the jet, maybe too good.

I have no idea how Jason will make the jet move (unless money just doesn’t matter at some point). The Pilatus just does too much for so little.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Jun 2018, 19:34

Username Protected wrote:

The problem is, after I sold my big twin I have yet to have many missions where I crossed the “need” threshold and my little TN Bo just keeps kicking butt. Having it as a ready to fly option is going to limit my jet time, but it also eliminates the thought of driving or airlines.

Passengers change that, though. It isn't just about the pilot.

Even for a short run, they much prefer a "big" plane like a turboprop or jet over a piston single. They want the comfort and security of the larger airplane over a piston single.

Personally, I do, too. I feel safer flying one turbine airplane, even on short hops, than a piston single. If I look only at my trips which are just me, and within 1 hour of a Bonanza, that's very few, less than 5 a year, which makes having a second smaller plane not worth it.

Maintaining proficiency in the Bonanza is not for nothing, either.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Jun 2018, 20:42

This entire thread could be summarized as: "horses for courses".

But by all means let's continue! After all we are proving, as we do routinely, that Ecclesiastes 1:9 is as true as ever...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Jun 2018, 21:03

Username Protected wrote:

And note, we didn't make it all the way to destination that was 5.5 hours away...

I've done it a 1000 times. PC12 is a 6.5 hour airplane with reserves. Mine has 11 seats.... I only have 8 of them installed. 8 occupants isn't a heavy load for PC12.

Tradewinds aviation runs their PC12's out of St. Barth (2000' strip) with 11 seats and full fuel.

At FL280 flight time is 5.9 with a 24 knot headwind.... the fuel burn is 2300 Lbs. Easy peasy. Well within reserves.

But you do know me well.... I would never fly around with eight 180 LBS guys.... who does? But they are all adults.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Jun 2018, 21:05

Username Protected wrote:

Did I mention the 525 has some really nice features compared to the 500serirs?

Okay I won’t show anymore pics of Walkers but I did just come from dinner with Richard Bacon and in addition to the C441, legacy Citations and Lear prigrams they now have the low utilization program available for the CJ series.

Gary

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Jun 2018, 21:53

Username Protected wrote:

But when you fly it, the boss wants to go fast

That's your choice, to fly high power and lower altitudes, but the plane WILL do the trip if you operate it correctly.

Note that it takes longer to do a fuel stop than to slow down and go non stop.

Quote:

If you make a trip once, they (those that own the baggage) expect you to do it every time. It is far easier to use safe numbers, so when you get the 130Kt headwind, you don't have to explain landing early.

You don't fly long legs because you lack the willingness to explain it to your passengers if they don't always work?

How do you explain below minimum weather?

I must be blessed with more understanding passengers.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Jun 2018, 00:08

Username Protected wrote:

Jeff is correct, especially on the 135 side. Passengers will sometimes flip over an unscheduled fuel stop.

Then schedule one, and they will be happy when you cancel it and go non stop.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Jun 2018, 08:02

Username Protected wrote:

Ahem. Tradewind Aviation does not run their PC12's out of St Barth with 11 seats and full fuel.
They fly them with 8 pax seats and approx. 1100lbs of fuel.
Trust me when I say I know better how they operate than you do

Tradewinds did my St. Barth training then I got checked out by a French Military pilot. I fly in and out of St. Barth a lot.... do you? Go ahead, Tell me how it works.

This is a picture of me, the French Military instructor that trained me (and all the Tradewinds pilots) and my Pilatus.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Jun 2018, 08:28

I'm gonna guess this joke might not have hit the target.

"But you do know me well.... I would never fly around with eight 180 LBS guys.... who does? But they are all adults."

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Jun 2018, 15:11

Username Protected wrote:

Tradewinds did my St. Barth training then I got checked out by a French Military pilot. I fly in and out of St. Barth a lot.... do you? Go ahead, Tell me how it works.

This is a picture of me, the French Military instructor that trained me (and all the Tradewinds pilots) and my Pilatus.

It is Tradewind Aviation, not Tradewinds by the way.
Bruno is a great instructor, and fun to fly with too.
I've done about 500 operations in and out of TFFJ.
I'm a Captain at Tradewind.
So yes, I do know how it works, and no, we don't fly out of there with full fuel. 1000-1100lbs is the normal fuel load.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Jun 2018, 15:15

It seems like this thread has run off the rails a bit. You guys might think about settling your differences via PM.

It started with a nice write up by Mark on C500 vs C525 and has somehow devolved into “my Swiss Army knife is better than your Leatherman” and vice versa. Every airplane has its pluses and minuses and every airplane has its ideal mission profile. Turbo props are great and jets are great for all kinds of reasons.