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20 Nov 2025, 12:53 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2020, 15:06 
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Joined: 02/28/17
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If he got the DAR sign off and AW cert long ago we now know for sure those things do not mean much. LOL

That plane was not air worthy long ago. But maybe they just look at it and say yeah it looks like a airplane and has all the things like prop, wings, seats, etc.. So its air worthy.


To be fair, they aren't aeronautical engineers. So as to whether it can fly is beyond their job description.

And they're just like DPE's. Everyone is different. Mine was pretty thorough. But then again, he had probably inspected dozens of Velocity's so he knew what to look for.

I've heard stories of some that hardly looked at the plane and others who spend a half day or even a whole day inspecting a plane.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2020, 20:17 
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I don't know that I would call yanking it off the runway at 87 kts like that controlled powered flight. Not much different than me riding my bike down the road at 20 mph and yanking the handlebars and jumping a little with my legs. I can clear an inch or two also but not flying.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2020, 20:50 
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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2020, 21:17 
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So a serious question for the home building group - Peter got his AW feet in 2019. Since then there have been some pretty significant design changes (the control cables and stick redesign) that may appreciably affect flying characteristics etc. Does he need to get with the DAR or is he free to do anything he wants to the approved design as the owner builder ? Is he now working under his repairmans certificate?


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2020, 23:00 
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Not really. If he changed engine, prop or a wing he would be required to start another phase I flight test. But since he hasn’t finished (much less begun) his initial phase I, he’s still good.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2020, 08:23 
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Interesting

He is a stronger man than I. If i was single and didn't have my wife to keep me from killing myself I would have totally flown it by now. Haha

The temptation must be so so powerful. I am impressed he has not just said F it and took off.

Mike

Maybe his strength is not posting video of his trip around the pattern.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2020, 08:29 
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Username Protected wrote:
Interesting

He is a stronger man than I. If i was single and didn't have my wife to keep me from killing myself I would have totally flown it by now. Haha

The temptation must be so so powerful. I am impressed he has not just said F it and took off.

Mike

Maybe his strength is not posting video of his trip around the pattern.

That seems unlikely.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2020, 09:23 
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Maybe his strength is not posting video of his trip around the pattern.


We will hopefully not read it on the news...
I wish him the best of luck, but nature does have some laws of physics that come with heavy costs when not respected...

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2020, 12:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
If he got the DAR sign off and AW cert long ago we now know for sure those things do not mean much. LOL

That plane was not air worthy long ago. But maybe they just look at it and say yeah it looks like a airplane and has all the things like prop, wings, seats, etc.. So its air worthy. Haha

Mike


Keep in mind, it is not the FAA nor their representatives job to determine if an experimental aircraft is airworthy or safe. That responsibility falls on the builder and especially the PIC.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2020, 12:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
If he got the DAR sign off and AW cert long ago we now know for sure those things do not mean much. LOL

That plane was not air worthy long ago. But maybe they just look at it and say yeah it looks like a airplane and has all the things like prop, wings, seats, etc.. So its air worthy. Haha

Mike


Keep in mind, it is not the FAA nor their representatives job to determine if an experimental aircraft is airworthy or safe. That responsibility falls on the builder and especially the PIC.


Yeah good point.

The dumb part is he can get that plane air worthy but I can't put a Garmin G3x in my 1977 421. LOL that would just be way too dangerous. Haha FAA

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2020, 13:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
Yeah good point.

The dumb part is he can get that plane air worthy but I can't put a Garmin G3x in my 1977 421. LOL that would just be way too dangerous. Haha FAA

Mike

1000 times this. The FAA is actually contrary to safety in this aspect.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2020, 13:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
Yeah good point.

The dumb part is he can get that plane air worthy but I can't put a Garmin G3x in my 1977 421. LOL that would just be way too dangerous. Haha FAA

Mike

1000 times this. The FAA is actually contrary to safety in this aspect.


I've said the same thing...it's super bizarre. He's also got a GFC500 in there, but it's too risky for my H35, even though N-V35 Bonazas already have it. :crazy:

It's really more the "private use vs commercial use" than the "experimental vs certified". We really need that categorization to help the legacy fleet that will never realistically see commercial use ever again (albeit by choice though - if you want to keep a craft in the commercial-cert category like a 172 trainer, that's a-ok).

In theory that's MOSAIC, but who knows if that'll ever see the light of day in a coherent result. I'd happily move my H35 to "non-commercial" use in a heartbeat.
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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2020, 17:40 
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I've said the same thing...it's super bizarre. He's also got a GFC500 in there, but it's too risky for my H35, even though N-V35 Bonazas already have it. :crazy:


I think the issue is not the autopilot, but designing the servo mounts and getting the proper cable tensions and servo torque values. When I got mine, they had to send some of the servo mount parts back to Garmin twice because they didn't fit properly, and that was after it was certified for F33As. To turn those loose to people to engineer for themselves would truly be an experiment, and a huge potential liability for Garmin.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2020, 17:58 
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Quote:
I've said the same thing...it's super bizarre. He's also got a GFC500 in there, but it's too risky for my H35, even though N-V35 Bonazas already have it. :crazy:


I think the issue is not the autopilot, but designing the servo mounts and getting the proper cable tensions and servo torque values. When I got mine, they had to send some of the servo mount parts back to Garmin twice because they didn't fit properly, and that was after it was certified for F33As. To turn those loose to people to engineer for themselves would truly be an experiment, and a huge potential liability for Garmin.


But they're already doing that - Peter has a GFC in his mystery machine here, and it's in a gamut of other "unproven" experimental airframes without a problem for Garmin - it's purely an FAA paperwork problem at this point. And you had your issues with an already certified product, which also points to issues with the value of the certification process as well...

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2020, 18:08 
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But somebody building an experimental aircraft would have a much harder time proving Garmin was the reason for the crash. When you put an autopilot in a certified airplane, that autopilot installation has already been tested and certified.


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