BeechTalk - BT - The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Jul 2022, 22:18

Username Protected wrote:

I'm sure to at least some extent it's unique to my plane, but the parts delay is real.

We are close to 12 months being down. Some of that was expected with a Garmin upgrade.
So much of the delay is just lost man hours....they found an issue and it tacks on 2 weeks. Find another issue, 2 more weeks etc. Part says it will come in 2 weeks but takes 3....I feel like starting another business that simply provides accurate ETA/lead times to shops. Its like no one spends time in logistics planning.

Here is my saga:
Paint/Interior was vastly delayed and the shop we used left a lot to be desired. We are finding tons of corrosion (like in the last 4 weeks ) that should have been found and fixed when it was stripped and re-painted. I guess its possible the corrosion is new since last October but if so, I suspect their prep was lacking if we are getting corrosion under new paint after 4 months. We also discovered the paint color they used was not the right part number. As we went to repaint sections that had corrision the color was off. Sure enough, looking back through emails we had it down to 2 shades...the shade we picked (and was recorded in the log book) is not what was applied. They applied the wrong one but put the correct one in the logs. The color itself was no big deal as the shades were so close you only would know when they are next to each other. That added about 3 weeks by the time the current shop scheduled the paint, found the issue, got the correct codes and rescheduled the fix.

We also discovered the toilet was not reinstalled properly and had been leaking...so add a few weeks to get it cleaned, new insulation installed etc.

The Garmin install was fine. Perhaps this was my ignorance but it would have been nice to have known about pending OH/Inspection items that could have been done while the plane is down and gutted. Being told you need to strip the interior 4 months after it was redone for the 5-year corrosion check is aggravating. While you have ABCD checks, you also have 3000Hr overhauls and 5 year items that are very heavy. I'll take the blame for not educating myself on that, though it would have been nice had the shop offered some guidance. Their response is "you didn't ask for that work" is true, but not helpful.

As you know, we also had the props condemned due to corrosion at the hubs. They were NOT due for OH. Not sure if that would typically been found in a pre-buy or not. I suspect a very thorough shop perhaps but not typical. We had a few parts that we found had not actually been OH and had to get a FAA waiver to move it for OH. This also wouldn't have been found in a pre-buy as they aren't verifying part numbers and just the log entry. So tack on a few weeks waiting on FAA paperwork.

Getting an OH/New hub was 3 months. Thats just parts availability. Then of course the shop had to put us back in the schedule once the hubs arrived.

Now, we are on the 3000/5 year check and the 8-week scheduled downtime is at 14 weeks and still going. Major delays have been:
Corrosion on skin panels - had to get some new panels/parts and repaint.
Toilet was cracked when reinstalled by the interior shop - had to get a new one of those and it took about 3 weeks.
Rudder Actuator OH - This is 60 days from Piaggio. Which we did plan for to get asap and get it back in the 8 weeks.
Flap Indicator - This was from inspection and now needs OH/replaced. Can't find a part and Piaggio is saying 70 days to OH.
Generator Duct - Needs to be replaced..its like 1ft section of aluminum dryer ducting....Piaggio says 120 days for the part....still looking for a used part.

Throw in some simple things like hoses etc that are 2-3 week lead times and it just keeps adding up. Some of this they work in parallel but others are only being found as we go.

I haven't even gone to FlightSafety yet. I've done maybe 3 flights in SIC seat down to move between shops etc. I'm hoping, we will be flying by Thanksgiving 22 and I can actually start enjoying this thing! If the Flap indicator goes from 70 days OH to 90 days OH it could be Christmas...or if we can't find that stupid generator duct/tubing it could be 2023. So far now, I keep burning holes in the clouds with my trusty A36.

TLDR: Delays are a combination of poor shop selection, maintenance items overdue/poorly maintained, and poor parts availability. Makes for a perfect storm of no flying.

I feel for you, Matt. That's a tough deal. And unfortunately, resonates all too well. I've been playing in the Cheap and "Good" bottom triangle for all my ownership years, and know just too well how long things take. Panel upgrade on mine was 8 months. Now, she's been in for an other 8 months for a further panel upgrade (that had to be reversed when they couldn't get Aspen to drive A/P) and niggly hydraulic stuff etc. But generally, just slow workmanship. Throw in a cowboy mechanic for years before this screwing things up that needed redoing by the new shops, and you're looking at time, time, time. Sigh.

And unfortunately, I think the problem is just going to get worse. Not enough A&P's, not enough knowledge, not enough shops - it's a perfect storm. Hiring a mechanic these days is like hiring a contractor - you're gonna get shitty work ethic and tons of delays.

Mine's supposed to be ready next week and I hope you will be able to go get a juicy turkey in yours!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Jul 2022, 22:47

Username Protected wrote:

I'm sure to at least some extent it's unique to my plane, but the parts delay is real.

We are close to 12 months being down. Some of that was expected with a Garmin upgrade.
So much of the delay is just lost man hours....they found an issue and it tacks on 2 weeks. Find another issue, 2 more weeks etc. Part says it will come in 2 weeks but takes 3....I feel like starting another business that simply provides accurate ETA/lead times to shops. Its like no one spends time in logistics planning.

Here is my saga:
Paint/Interior was vastly delayed and the shop we used left a lot to be desired. We are finding tons of corrosion (like in the last 4 weeks ) that should have been found and fixed when it was stripped and re-painted. I guess its possible the corrosion is new since last October but if so, I suspect their prep was lacking if we are getting corrosion under new paint after 4 months. We also discovered the paint color they used was not the right part number. As we went to repaint sections that had corrision the color was off. Sure enough, looking back through emails we had it down to 2 shades...the shade we picked (and was recorded in the log book) is not what was applied. They applied the wrong one but put the correct one in the logs. The color itself was no big deal as the shades were so close you only would know when they are next to each other. That added about 3 weeks by the time the current shop scheduled the paint, found the issue, got the correct codes and rescheduled the fix.

We also discovered the toilet was not reinstalled properly and had been leaking...so add a few weeks to get it cleaned, new insulation installed etc.

The Garmin install was fine. Perhaps this was my ignorance but it would have been nice to have known about pending OH/Inspection items that could have been done while the plane is down and gutted. Being told you need to strip the interior 4 months after it was redone for the 5-year corrosion check is aggravating. While you have ABCD checks, you also have 3000Hr overhauls and 5 year items that are very heavy. I'll take the blame for not educating myself on that, though it would have been nice had the shop offered some guidance. Their response is "you didn't ask for that work" is true, but not helpful.

As you know, we also had the props condemned due to corrosion at the hubs. They were NOT due for OH. Not sure if that would typically been found in a pre-buy or not. I suspect a very thorough shop perhaps but not typical. We had a few parts that we found had not actually been OH and had to get a FAA waiver to move it for OH. This also wouldn't have been found in a pre-buy as they aren't verifying part numbers and just the log entry. So tack on a few weeks waiting on FAA paperwork.

Getting an OH/New hub was 3 months. Thats just parts availability. Then of course the shop had to put us back in the schedule once the hubs arrived.

Now, we are on the 3000/5 year check and the 8-week scheduled downtime is at 14 weeks and still going. Major delays have been:
Corrosion on skin panels - had to get some new panels/parts and repaint.
Toilet was cracked when reinstalled by the interior shop - had to get a new one of those and it took about 3 weeks.
Rudder Actuator OH - This is 60 days from Piaggio. Which we did plan for to get asap and get it back in the 8 weeks.
Flap Indicator - This was from inspection and now needs OH/replaced. Can't find a part and Piaggio is saying 70 days to OH.
Generator Duct - Needs to be replaced..its like 1ft section of aluminum dryer ducting....Piaggio says 120 days for the part....still looking for a used part.

Throw in some simple things like hoses etc that are 2-3 week lead times and it just keeps adding up. Some of this they work in parallel but others are only being found as we go.

I haven't even gone to FlightSafety yet. I've done maybe 3 flights in SIC seat down to move between shops etc. I'm hoping, we will be flying by Thanksgiving 22 and I can actually start enjoying this thing! If the Flap indicator goes from 70 days OH to 90 days OH it could be Christmas...or if we can't find that stupid generator duct/tubing it could be 2023. So far now, I keep burning holes in the clouds with my trusty A36.

TLDR: Delays are a combination of poor shop selection, maintenance items overdue/poorly maintained, and poor parts availability. Makes for a perfect storm of no flying.

Oh man Matt. I really feel for you. We have done many of the same things, and used some of the same shops but with different experiences.

I don’t remember the exact dates, but something like a Late January ‘21 close and then we did Garmin and interior at same time. We had the plane back in May (maybe 2 weeks later than planned). Flew for three months then off to paint. They said 5 weeks and we’re really damn close.

We just did A+B+5 Year corrosion. They said 4-6 weeks and it took 5.5, would have been 4 weeks if Collins and Customs had done a better job on AP computer.

I’ve been fortunate that I haven’t needed parts that are tough to get.

Sounds like you are close. Hope it’s all downhill from here.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Jul 2022, 23:52

Username Protected wrote:

I'm sure to at least some extent it's unique to my plane, but the parts delay is real.

I’ve been fortunate that I haven’t needed parts that are tough to get.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Aug 2022, 09:25

Piaggio or not, I wouldn’t think of putting a plane in the shop for a panel or interior upgrade right now. If it flies, just keep it flying. It only goes in for truly minor items and AOG stuff.

I’ve heard too many stories of planes down for a year - it’s not restricted to Piaggio at all.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Aug 2022, 10:09

The Garmin/interior was 4 of the 12 months down. Unfortunately, the props and corrosion items are airworthy items and couldn't fly under good conscious.

On a side note, I did have my old plane upgraded to G3X touch and new autopilot this winter since I knew it was gonna get more use for a while and would help resell value. That was done in 3 weeks. But its far more common and I have 5 shops within a 20-mile radius that bid on the job. Much more competitive and parts sitting on the shelf ready to ship.

Also interesting, the parts markup on Piaggio is just crazy. The shop was trying to locate an overhauled part and sent me a quote....it was 24K. Then the shop said it was a mistake and that was their cost, our cost would be 50K. 100% markup for the part...no labor. I fear, just not enough competition to keep these guys honest.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Aug 2022, 10:27

Pros and cons.
The positives far outweigh the negatives so far for me.
Hopefully I can still say this in five years.

As to pricing I would really like to get LVP upgrade.
I spoke to a pilot in Europe that said LVP upgrade is around 30k there. Unconfirmed
I would upgrade next time available if I could get anywhere close to this.

Here I am hearing numbers in the 100k ballpark. NoSirEEBob

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Aug 2022, 10:31

Username Protected wrote:

The Garmin/interior was 4 of the 12 months down. Unfortunately, the props and corrosion items are airworthy items and couldn't fly under good conscious.

On a side note, I did have my old plane upgraded to G3X touch and new autopilot this winter since I knew it was gonna get more use for a while and would help resell value. That was done in 3 weeks. But its far more common and I have 5 shops within a 20-mile radius that bid on the job. Much more competitive and parts sitting on the shelf ready to ship.

Also interesting, the parts markup on Piaggio is just crazy. The shop was trying to locate an overhauled part and sent me a quote....it was 24K. Then the shop said it was a mistake and that was their cost, our cost would be 50K. 100% markup for the part...no labor. I fear, just not enough competition to keep these guys honest.

I'm curious about the second airplanes that big TP owners keep. What did you put a G3x/AP into, and what general metro area?
-J

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Aug 2022, 10:46

Nothing nearly as sexy...a B36TC and I'm near Harrisburg PA.

Which is probably part of my shock/learning experience. Going from a very common GA plane to a Business class turboprop is different shops, parts markets etc. You run numbers for Gear, Engine overhaul and ABCD but don't realize you also get 200K-400K 5-year and other mandatory overhauls. I've now spend more in overhauls and inspections in 18mon than I did on the plane, and that does not include Gear, Engine or D check.

Don't get me wrong. Not saying I wouldn't do it again. But I fly for business so trying to plan when the Piaggio will be back in the air and I can meet with customers etc has been a constant disappointment.

I'm sure if I had been told, "Don't plan to use this for 2 years" it would have been less frustrating. It may have had me re-think the purchase knowing 2 years to get it operational but hindsight is always 20/20

For sure - I'm still hoping this will all be a bad dream in a few more months and I will be singing its praises. And selfishly I want more people to buy them....the bigger the pool of buyers and operators the more love we will get from shops.

Side question to those with the Garmin upgrade - Is the hobbs/hour meter enabled on your G500? We were gonna add an hours meter but then found out the G500 can be enabled for it. The shop is trying to review the wiring to see if its easier than just throwing in a separate LCD. Wondering if others already have this enabled?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Aug 2022, 11:13

Username Protected wrote:

Side question to those with the Garmin upgrade - Is the hobbs/hour meter enabled on your G500? We were gonna add an hours meter but then found out the G500 can be enabled for it. The shop is trying to review the wiring to see if its easier than just throwing in a separate LCD. Wondering if others already have this enabled?

The other valuable question to ask is what can be done with any integrated Hobbs (Garmin or other vendor) to set the meter to the aircraft time at date of installation. Some manufacturers make this a giant PITA.

If it were me I would want the integrated Hobbs so that all digital engine records are Hobbs-referenced IF the engine data is going through the big glass. If using stand-alone engine indications then a stand-alone Hobbs makes the best sense.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Aug 2022, 11:44

Username Protected wrote:

Pros and cons.
The positives far outweigh the negatives so far for me.
Hopefully I can still say this in five years.

As to pricing I would really like to get LVP upgrade.
I spoke to a pilot in Europe that said LVP upgrade is around 30k there. Unconfirmed
I would upgrade next time available if I could get anywhere close to this.

Here I am hearing numbers in the 100k ballpark. NoSirEEBob

PL21 LPV?
It depends on your specific configuration.
30k may be for a plane with FMS 4.1 already installed, otherwise...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Aug 2022, 12:41

Username Protected wrote:

Pros and cons.
The positives far outweigh the negatives so far for me.
Hopefully I can still say this in five years.

As to pricing I would really like to get LVP upgrade.
I spoke to a pilot in Europe that said LVP upgrade is around 30k there. Unconfirmed
I would upgrade next time available if I could get anywhere close to this.

Here I am hearing numbers in the 100k ballpark. NoSirEEBob

PL21 LPV?
It depends on your specific configuration.
30k may be for a plane with FMS 4.1 already installed, otherwise...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Aug 2022, 19:43

What a read this has been.

Being a reasonably motivated purchaser of the P180 I am in in paralysis analyses mode.
P180, II or EVO. All have serious factors to consider. I hope you all can Help

Tony, Brad and Daniele and others.

EVO is out, cost to high with not much benefit,

Pros: Quieter, New landing gear. Hmmmm Maybe more (warranty, interior...)
Cons, Old avionics, not even with synthetic vision. High avionics suite repair and annual cost. AP getting OLD

II More affordable and better value than EVO
Pros: Proline 21 with integrated engine management, -66B engine, Long range tank option (well not really), and a few STC that may not be passed down to the I (WTF).
Cons: Heavy proline 21 with expensive repair and annual fees. AP getting really long in the tooth. parts and support dwindling.

I
Pros: Cheapish, has a so so upgrade path to better, limited avionics.
Cons: Being squeezed with limited upgrades and STC (no real reason for it), parts even more scares to acquire.

So here is my two cents:
There are roughly 200+ out there flying and the company is in bankruptcy and really focused on selling new/old aircraft. Yes the Co. does other things of value but why not just cut those loose and let third parties STC upgrade the AC and rebuild reputation and try again. There is no reason that everything on the EVO cannot be added to the I and II. Let Garmin put in a G950 which really is the 600txi and 650 750 but with engine management which can be done because it runs on the pt6 engines. Saves tones on not recertifying the AP which should be updated. Give that option for the I and II and change the EVO too a G3000 or make all upgraded to the G3000.
If Collins gets pissed than ask them to take some of the 10K plus annual per system and create a upgrade path for ALL proline. Give us a path to go fusion. Make a AP upgrade and so on. It can all be done but i doubt Collins will do anything.
So Piaggio, release the STC to all aircraft and save everyone a lot of effort that you have already done. Give Garmin the inside for engine management and AP upgrades for PL21.
Rebuild the reputation with what you have and stop selling pipe dreams with OLD aircraft.
Why not let Garmin put in a G3000 and call it a day.
You wanted to be a pioneer company than pioneer!! update all aircraft and every one and there dog will want one and you might start selling new aircraft again.

I know, I'm selfish!!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Aug 2022, 20:51

Interesting read Patrick. A few rambling thoughts of a Garmin-ized P180 owner.

- It would be a unique buyer that would choose a new EVO over a new/slightly used Phenom 300. (I haven't priced either - but I think they are in the same "ballpark"

- As a I owner, I'm not sure what STC's I can't get that I should want? I'm an "upgrade buyer" and will go for nifty new things even if they have marginal value.

- Parts availability of I vs II vs EVO. Again, no expert, but I don't see a difference here. A lot of commonality across versions for parts. I think I might be a bit advantaged as I don't need but can probably get Garmin parts. There are probably a ton of Collins legacy parts out there.

- It would be great to get a Garmin AP and integrated engine info - but the real driver here would be if it reduced reliance on parts that are hard to get for engine instruments/AP. Hasn't been an issue so far. After using PL21 at FlightSafety, I think I like my "stand-out" legacy digital instruments and warning panel.

- If you are a company in BK proceedings...I bet the last thing you do is "give up something now (STC's) for the future". You hoard everything and put on the best face you can for the future

My P180 has been much more than I ever expected it to be...love it.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Aug 2022, 10:34

Username Protected wrote:

Interesting read Patrick. A few rambling thoughts of a Garmin-ized P180 owner.

- It would be a unique buyer that would choose a new EVO over a new/slightly used Phenom 300. (I haven't priced either - but I think they are in the same "ballpark"

- As a I owner, I'm not sure what STC's I can't get that I should want? I'm an "upgrade buyer" and will go for nifty new things even if they have marginal value.

- Parts availability of I vs II vs EVO. Again, no expert, but I don't see a difference here. A lot of commonality across versions for parts. I think I might be a bit advantaged as I don't need but can probably get Garmin parts. There are probably a ton of Collins legacy parts out there.

- It would be great to get a Garmin AP and integrated engine info - but the real driver here would be if it reduced reliance on parts that are hard to get for engine instruments/AP. Hasn't been an issue so far. After using PL21 at FlightSafety, I think I like my "stand-out" legacy digital instruments and warning panel.

- If you are a company in BK proceedings...I bet the last thing you do is "give up something now (STC's) for the future". You hoard everything and put on the best face you can for the future

My P180 has been much more than I ever expected it to be...love it.

Ya I was rambling/venting, Sorry!

I guess its not really about today but about tomorrow. Your comment about upgrades "I can get or Should want" is the real point hear.
The ones you cant get on either the I or II are the new Props. Really!! Come on Man! But would anyone pay for it and do you really need it. Probably not. Plus I am sure they would charge a fortune for it for no reason than to try to get out of bankruptcy. It has really been a big sore spot for the Plane, the noise that is, and they have a solution BUT hey lets not give it to anyone and keep the dark cloud over our head. When the engines get run out- give us the option to upgrade to the -66b (which can be done) and the new props. Yes there will also be new cowling and exhaust. But really how much can that be?
If the engine are not run out, give us hour credits on the existing and move one (That would be a P&W thing which I am pretty sure is there). Now everyone will be happy and what great star for the plane and company!
What the II can get but 180I cannot:
Extended range fuel tank. Do you really need it? You tell me!
Lithium Batteries, Saves weight and better reliability. But again do you need it?
Landing Gear and steel brakes? can a 180I get that? and do you need it? why not if you have to overhaul the existing gear. Pay a little extra and get update.

Now for the real tomorrow thing. The AP is a dinosaur and will be a big issue in the very near future for all three. To calibrate them is a nightmare and parts will be a huge issue. and when it goes down so will you, in time or worse. Garmin has still not been able to fully calibrate the AP with their panel and doubt they will. Not exactly sure how flying a Garmin paneled plane that has three altitude readings being 140 to 180 feet difference in RVSM space is safe. Never the less it is working and seems ok for Now.
For engine instruments, Tapping on gauges for them to start to work may be neat or cool but when one breaks how much is that and how long until you get a replacement.

Going to stop beating a :deadhorse:

and move on and just go decide if I want a I with Garmin, old engine gauges or a II with the heavy PL21 and expensive annual cost.
Reasonable Garmin with older engine gauges is probably the way to go. I am sure I can burn out a lot of engine gauges for the 10K price of the PL21 annual cost.

Refresh my memory can the 180I with the -66 be upgraded to the -66B regardless of panel?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Aug 2022, 11:50

The AP, even in the I, is as good as the vaulted Garmin AP IMHO. If it exactly tracks the line, flies a coupled miss, corrects well for wind, never over or undershoots why is the Garmin better? Only answer I can come up with is servo availability/serviceability. The AP in the II maybe is considered even better than mine bc it has a FLC mode. I don’t see benefit in that but it at least matches Garmin features. It is nails as far as smoothness and tracking.

The rumor mill would suggest the Saab conglomerate is who will end up with Piaggio. Same rumor mill also suggests they will rapidly try and improve support. If that changed, the planes future would be brighter for sure. It’s hard to certify new planes and this one beats most things in its class. It’s unique for sure, but there is a spot in the market for it. I keep my fingers crossed for reasonable new owners of the company.

I know that if someone gave me a demo bird and priced it appropriate to market I could sell a good number of them, especially over Cessna jets. The cabin and ride comfort would convert most people. Small changes to Maint program would make it competitive.

I am not aware of a way to put -66b engines on a 66 airframe but there is some burner can upgrade for the -66 engines. Not sure benefits.

Extra fuel would be nice but where they put it makes w&b funky. I fly long trips and would love to carry more. I don’t think it is relevant to most operators though and the plane already goes further than most things in its class.

The props with the lower noise slow the plane down. I don’t want them bc of that alone! Only a few knots over a II but slower is slower.

EvO is awesome but a lot are heavy. It’s a big cabin that is easy to fill with silly stuff. I like the old ones bc they are so lightweight.

It’s a magical airframe that has the best safety record of any corporate aircraft (well, you can’t do better, so let’s say tied with the best) When you consider it is has done that over a 30yr operational history I think that’s impressive.

It is so close to full bright, maybe new owners will find a way to get it there.