Really,

Are you going to drive 0-60 in the city where the speed limit is 35 MPH? And yes, I have had the ZR-1 high into the triple digits and a motorcycle on public roads. Made it from NE Indiana to Hilton Head,SC in 7 hours flat and that included the time it took to get a ticket in Knoxville. Heck, I have driven a motorhome over 100MPH. The city is where the Tesla will stay since it has no legs. Might as well ride the subway.

My point is that the Tesla "Roadster" is not a performance car. It goes from 0-60 quickly and that is it. It has no top end and will not go anywhere without an extension cord following it. It is hardly better than a kit car someone builds in their garage. The model S is a nice improvement over the Roadster. Tesla figured out that the Roadster was not the ideal sports car. The sedan does make more sense for sure. The charging stations also make sense and when the battery technology gets better it will get even better, but for now it is wasting money. Let the OPEN and FREE market drive the need.

Also, I think it would be much better to have universal battery packs that could swap out at "charging stations" Simply pull up and have a robot change your battery pack. Not much different than swapping LP tanks at the gas station. This would make much more sense since it could be done in 5 minutes if the car was built properly.

Todd,

The market has spoken, Tesla Model S is selling well.
The Roadster was defined as an R&D project. They even told the customer this, the goal of the Roadster was to work out problems.

In terms of speeding on public roads, I am glad you are still alive. If you really drive that fast on public roads I am surprised you have not killed yourself or someone else.

I think I am gonna bow out, you keep changing your argument when someone provides a counter that does not match your preconceived reality.

Tim

That's 30k miles a year, at 25 mpg you're spending $4,200 per year on fuel. If an electric worked for your driving style, why wouldn't you want one? More than 75% of Americans don't drive more than 60 miles per day.

Tim,

Do you ever speed? 78 in a 70? 42 in a 30? The numbers are irrelevant. Breaking the law is breaking the law.

Going 190 MPH at 3am on an Interstate road with nobody on it will only hurt me if I crash.

Ever fly your plane over populated areas? What if you lose control? Ever fly your plane while under the influence of any drugs including cold medicine? Ever pay a kid under the table to do your lawn work and not send him a 1099? Pay all your sales tax on items you bought on the internet?

I think electric has a great future *when it becomes needed!* Henry Ford built the best car in the world and revolutionized the way cars were built WITHOUT interference. This article sums it up best. High fuel prices will drive more efficient engines and possibly electric alternatives, but the *market* must make it happen.

http://www.american.com/archive/2012/au ... d-vehicles

That's 30k miles a year, at 25 mpg you're spending $4,200 per year on fuel. If an electric worked for your driving style, why wouldn't you want one? More than 75% of Americans don't drive more than 60 miles per day.

Todd,

I thought I would not reply but your statements are so funny I cannot resist.

I never commented on breaking the law. This is another straw man argument since you like to change the topic. I specifically said doing over a hundred I hope you do not kill someone, my comment was all about safety.

Yes I fly over populated areas, with a second engine or a parachute in the airplane. But what does this have to do with speeding? Or better yet, what does it have to do with driving an electric car?

As for flying with a cold medicine, nope. Never have, never will. Nope, never paid a kid under the table to do the lawn, to clean the house... I 1099 everyone; ever the baby sitter. Much to her parents surprise.... The list goes on, with my specific career choice I do not have a grey area where I get to bend the rules.

In terms of subsidies, you need to do a lot more research on it. Oil and gas companies get massive subsidies (limited liability, land leases, tax brakes....), car companies get massive subsidies (research grants, limited liability...), now a few have managed to get the same treatment for electric cars and people complain. But at the end of the day, the market will speak its mind. And guess what, electric cars are doing better then all the nay sayers blab about.

Tim

been in the oil business for 30+ years. Never seen a tax break, or any other subsidy. Not a one. Everytime I hear that crap I wonder if the person has a clue what his world would be like without petroleum products. Those wooden wheels on your Tesla would not ride will.

Douglas,

A liability limit actually is a form of subsidy. Without liability limits it would be impractical for gas lines to carry fuel across the country, for drilling rigs...
That does not even consider costs for interference in the Middle East.

The most common argument as seen in this Forbes article is that oil and gas does not get a subsidy because everyone gets it:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackm ... r-big-oil/

Here is a very definition for a subsidy from Wikipedia:
Energy subsidies are measures that keep prices for consumers below market levels or for producers above market levels, or reduce costs for consumers and producers.[citation needed] Energy subsidies may be direct cash transfers to producers, consumers, or related bodies, as well as indirect support mechanisms, such as tax exemptions and rebates, price controls, trade restrictions, and limits on market access. They may also include energy conservation subsidies.[citation needed] The development of today's major modern energy industries have all relied on substantial subsidy support.


Guess what, the tax breaks for oil and gas are a subsidy. I enjoy every time I fill up the car a lower price then otherwise. At the end of the day, our country has benefited a lot from subsidies. They work.

Tim

This post has gone from flying a 421 to a discussion surrounding Teslas, electric cars and energy subsidies....

wife let me back in......she was dragging me down with kid stories and all the rest......

I'm back ......let me at it.......Tim, tag me in here..... ....let's get it on before the Jeff's shut us down.

Todd, Tim has a point, you went from beating up the Tesla S model with a Hyundai to beating up the Roadster with the souped up Vette. It's okay to be wrong.....you're a pilot, still okay in our book. And you don't need no frigging POH either. Mercedes are crapola for the price. Have an R350 all wheel drive for sale. Tesla S is an incredibly fine piece of engineering. Way, way better than the souped up Vette. Got an incredible safety record too.. Shouting louder don't make you any more right. Go drive an S model. As I said, I'll come and drive the Z06 with you. Name the place. Go drive the S model. It ain't your grandmother's mercedes or your neighbours Hyundai Ewuss. It's a very serious car. It's almost downright perfect. As a sedan it's way, way better than any other car out there. Just happens to be electric. Get a used one

Now Doug, what exactly do you do in the oil business. You telling me that the subsidies paid to the big oil companies are just not there? If you're the little guy, maybe not, but the big boys get a ton, and that's only half of what they tell us.

I got a ton of ideas what the world would be like without petroleum. Some good, some not so good. Have you lost a friend in Iraq, or any of the oil wars? You telling me that frakking is good. Smog in China right now.......ever been there, seen it? Think it's sustainable long term. Not just pollution from cars, but from chemicals.....what are the autism rates in the US. Do you know? Tesla wheels will roll just perfectly, and wooden wheels are what this great country was founded and explored on.

My oceans, when I sail offshore now, we catch more trash than fish. Most of it petroleum based.

So yes, I'm the greenie with the Baron that wants to help preserve the earth for my 6 kids all of different races, backgrounds and color as well as all their friends. Why, cause it's worth preserving. Who understands that most food produced here is now incredibly toxic. The Tesla is a HUGE step in that direction because it opens our options and it shows us what's possible. It's also one seriously incredible car. Way better than any mentioned here. The reviews, sales and market cap speak for themselves. Seriously anyone knocking the Tesla is knocking ingenuity, perseverance and pure guts!!

An electric airplane will be along soon too!!!

tapout?

Yeah, Yeah, bake a pie, eat a pie.

Ever seen the pollution battery manufacturers make? How about the sugar producers KILLING Florida with the Army Corp leading the way? Where do you think the magnets and metal that make the motors come from?

The Tesla is a neat idea and will be a good product when it is needed in 50 years or so when the government has already stolen what they need. C02 emissions hurt nothing. Pollution does. Battery production pollutes. People flying their Barons pollute. People in general pollute. Kill all the people and we have a perfect planet. Or better yet, let those that kill the planet use their toys that kill the planet and then buy another toy that somehow magically offsets the damage.

I'm all for solar and electric cars if the market dictates it. I do not live in China and could give a flying * what happens there. Necessity is the mother of invention. Currently, we have enough coal, oil, and natural gas to power us about 300 years or so -no wars needed - wars are political. With nuclear power we could go forever, especially with solar used in the southern states. Instead, we will fly 421s with their polluting 100LL engines and then hop in our overpriced subsidized Teslas and claim we have saved the planet. Excuse me now, I have to go drive my ZR-1 190 MPH and put a catalytic converter in the cow's *** next door so it does not make too much methane.

I feel like I just entered the twilight zone. You guys talk about how wonderful electric cars are due to their efficiency and Environmental wonders and then fly around 20-50 GPH 100LL burning machines that you don't truly need. So, drive your "free" $100k car and then burn $1000 of 100LL for a weekend trip? Really?

i got nothing but......

Car fleet goes electric, petrol prices go down, Mid East implodes and no one cares, everyone wins especially 421 and Duke drivers. Makes perfect sense to me. I'm going on the list for the model X!

I just looked at page one and page 13 of this thread.

How did we get from 421 vs Duke to Tesla vs. Vette ?

This thread is so far off topic, but since you asked....

I am a downstream guy with a small lubricant blending and distribution business, 10 employees. The major oil companies are my suppliers and they are a major PITA. I have no love whatsoever for the majors.

They bypass distribution and sell direct to anyone with any volume at all. They sell the product to their end-user customers delivered to their field locations in small quantities considerably cheaper than they sell to their distributors in truckload quantities FOB refinery. This makes it nearly impossible for my customers to compete with their National Account customers in the field. Horribly unfair...

The consolidation of the industry has left very little competition at the basic level. They have market disicipline. ExxonMobil moves the price and everyone else falls in line. Only very occasionally do they post a move that the rest of the market doesn't follow in lockstep.

We need some Teddy R. Anti-Trust.... Bust up Big Oil, Big Banks, and maybe Textron needs to divest either Cessna or Beech???