Not saying this is the case with KA but let's say there are lots of gust lock accidents with a certain model aircraft. It could be that the design of the gust look is not great and allowing pilot errors. So then its possible its the aircraft designs fault.

Same with PA46 nose gear. At some point it's the design thats causing pilots to make mistakes.

One of the most important parts of aircraft design is the human interface. If a system is built to do its job well but confuses the pilot then its not really a good design.

It's like in road construction where they change the flow of traffic. If they do so and there are a bunch of skid marks and crashes at the point of the change then they probably could have done a better job of the design. You cant just say well it's the drivers fault for not paying attention.

Mike

The Citation fleet has flown more miles and more passengers with less deaths.

I'd say that compares quite favorably.

Mike C.

I posted this also on the crash talk thread of the Twin Otter crash in TN. But it is a great cockpit video showing setting takeoff power in the Twin Otter and copilot tightening the friction locks after power is set. Then Captain rotates keeping one hand on the power levers.

They swap after liftoff with copilot guarding the power levers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPGI1IG8SVo


But then here is another with no attempt at the same details.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmm4Nq060Wo

There are a number of cases where that is clearly not the case. King Airs that crashed with the gear out within seconds of rotation. KADS is an example.

Mike C.

Why should the King Air be practically the only airplane which kills everyone aboard for such a simple mistake?

Clearly, the problem continues to exist, people continue to die. Blaming the pilot is ignoring the human factors in design and the King Air throttles are badly designed. Planes should be designed to be as tolerant of mistakes as possible and the King Air clearly isn't.

Mike C.

Why should the King Air be practically the only airplane which kills everyone aboard for such a simple mistake?

Clearly, the problem continues to exist, people continue to die. Blaming the pilot is ignoring the human factors in design and the King Air throttles are badly designed. Planes should be designed to be as tolerant of mistakes as possible and the King Air clearly isn't.

Mike C.

Is the problem really related to using “Jet driver” techniques? For instance at V1 in a jet the pilot is committed and moves both hands to yoke. V1 and Vr and really close together in a KA. That is a really bad time for PLM. Still, fixed by just getting your hand back on the PLs.

I never few jets. I had PLM once in a 200. It was no big deal. Why? First, I always rotated at 105 instead of 100 as per Tom C’s thoughts. 200 was just a bit more “sprightly” at 105. Second, I didn’t retract gear at “positive rate” I waited until no more usable runway, which means I was going 140 or so (in the 200, in the C90 had to retract before 129)

An unresolved PLM/engine failure, without auto-feather, right at rotation would be harder to control. At 140 knots, startling, but not immediately dangerous.

LOL the Piaggio beats both in comfort, economy, quietness and looks (just sayin')

Carry on!

It is clearly a design issue that levers roll back to idle without pilot command. There are simple and effective solutions for this that Textron seems unwilling to deal with.

The King Air apologists can try to pin this on the pilot, but that's bogus. An aircraft isn't supposed to be trying to kill you.

Mike C.

Flown properly, it won’t.

All airplanes will kill you if you don’t fly them properly.

Do you know why the accidents have risen so much in the last few years?

Neither do I… but something changed and it wasn’t the airplane. That same design has been around since the 1960’s

You seem to have a weird “ex-employee” type of dislike for Textron. Do you want to see them go out of business? Your Citation V no longer supported? Because if you were right and this was some type of automatically fatal flaw… that is what would happen.

And I do acknowledge that back in the day, I gave you a lot of grief about the Mits safety issues. So, as a self proclaimed King Air apologist, I probably deserve whatever grief you send my way!

Flown properly, it won’t.

All airplanes will kill you if you don’t fly them properly.

Do you know why the accidents have risen so much in the last few years?

Neither do I… but something changed and it wasn’t the airplane. That same design has been around since the 1960’s

You seem to have a weird “ex-employee” type of dislike for Textron. Do you want to see them go out of business? Your Citation V no longer supported? Because if you were right and this was some type of automatically fatal flaw… that is what would happen.

Norm,

King Air 300 has been out since 1984, King Air 350 since 1990 - I know it’s hard to believe but that is forty years!! The 300/350 are the two airplanes that should be the most susceptible, based on hp, size of props, distance of engines from centerline.

The King Air 350 fleet is huge, yet still just one fatality crash in the US!

That accident was 100% the pilot and every single person who knew him has said the same thing. The video proves it.

What separates the 300 / 350 from all other King Airs?

Training.

I actually prefer the term advocate over the term apologist.

This thread is about the King Air 350 and it needs no apology!

The smallest jet you can buy that compares to that cabin is a Lear 45/75!

The King Air 350 really is in a class by itself.

PLM mitigation was not taught or talked about in many places until very recently. It is possible that there are other factors that make the 300/350 less susceptible such as longer cables and different routing. Similar to the minor differences in the rt and left cables making the left side slightly more prone. There has been 250 series in the US and 300/350 crashes outside of the US that have the PLM signature LOC just after takeoff.

If you think training is the solution then do you think it should be mandated like with the MUII? Or do you think, like some seem to, that if people don’t know or utilize the unique procedures to prevent it then so be it? I think there is a simple solution that could prevent many more deaths.

And FYI there has been many instances of right engine rollbacks too so it can’t be attributed only to the fact that the FCU is on the right side of the engine.