Too much to respond to…

But in 8 years of business I have never taken any kickbacks from any shop. But, Mike is right, it does happen. I had a pilot steer one of my clients to a big shop once, one we don’t like to use on 525’s, and I wondered.

So, it is a fair point.

I would let any of our clients look at our books, our checking accounts, my personal checking accounts, anything they asked for… I’m completely transparent.

It doesn't have to be cash or checks, you should see what I've seen justified for something as simple as master's tickets each year

millions of dollars in excess spending, so that someone could go hang out in a crowd and play where's Waldo on the golf channel

disclaimer: my comment is not at chip nor am I accusing anyone on this forum of kickbacks

Chip,

This is the kind of stuff that winds we active owners up. What on earth could cause "$50k plus in discrepancies" to come up on a well-maintained plane? Is it possible? Sure. There is a thread on CJP where someone with an 1,100 hour Mustang, a crack was found on an interior rib of the horizontal stab. Textron is quoting $100k. But your statement that the seller would "know" that a Phase 5 will generate $50k in discrepancies is nuts IMO.

I haven't been through a Phase 5 but I just finished my 1-4. Total discrepancies were a bit of ducting in the tail (heat exchanger exhaust ducting), a set of peri seals for one bleed air connection in the tail, 2 spots of corrosion found on the flaps (likely rocks kicked up that chipped the paint and then more dirt/salt etc flung into the area and caused corrosion) that was fixed with $2,700 of sanding and paint (and that also included touching up some other paint areas since the painter was there), and a leaking sump drain that needed a new o-ring.

I'm 3 years out for my Phase 5 but I would absolutely take you up on your offer - I am confident that I would come out ahead on that deal.

Again, stuff can happen whether it's a 172, a Bo, or a jet. That's why we do the inspections in the first place. But the bottom line is that if someone "knows" that that they are going to have $50k plus in discrepancies during an inspection, then they are NOT maintaining their airplane, period.

No, they I believe use a local shop in Grand Junction for it. That might have been for two I don't remember - either way I bought a used one on eBay for my flight sim (our extra seat is in my flight sim) for something like $20. It was too short to use in the 441.

The pot/rheostat was actually a Honeywell part. I don't know if I'm remembering that price correctly either but it was vastly uncorrelated with what it actually costs. It looks like half of a tiny aluminum can with a spring and a wiper on it. West Star can "rebuild them" which I think means putting a new tiny spring in it.

I did not know you could do a pricing review, I'll keep that in mind.

Chip

Maybe go back and look at your post. Nobody is putting words in your mouth. You started this and kept digging deeper over and over. You made yourself very clear. You sometimes back pedal but the message was heard.

I won’t back off and once you started throwing punches I will return them. I have always been told to not get in an argument or fight with someone that has nothing to lose. Especially when you do have something to lose.

Don’t call people liars, attack characters, and make false claims of things you don’t know unless you are ready to get it thrown back at you.

Guys like Tarver are way more polite and PC than I will be.

Mike

This is one of the many things in our industry that needs to be cleaned up, but it is minor compared to some of the other monkey business!

Just thought I would post a real world flight in the turboprop. The efficiency of these birds is amazing for their capability. Took 5 peeps and a weeks worth of luggage on this 1452 nm trip. Had to leave a little fuel behind with all the weight, but was still able to go normal cruise speed, landing with an hour reserve fuel. The total fuel burn was 200 gallons and I paid $5.08 per gallon for a total of $1016. The speed of the jet would be nice, but going to cost quite a bit more.

Chuck

That is an impressive trip. I don’t think anyone argues that the SETP like the M600 isn’t a great machine and burns very little fuel. You pay one way or the other. Not many SETP that can make that trip, for sure not a Meridian. The M600 may be the most efficient SETP there is.

Let’s compare loan payments or capitol cost and not just flightaware tracks. Haha

My flight last night was painful. Had 70-80 knot headwinds. And ATC kept me
Low on the departure. Cruising at FL190 being held low sucks the fuel. Burned 1800lbs of fuel on this trip. That’s more than your 1400nm trip. Haha.


https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N45AF

Mike

I had a Meridian for 3 years and it was a great airplane for what it was. No external baggage was a huge downside for me. Even if it fits it's a backbreaker to load behind the rear seat. Golf clubs and my family of 4...no way. While the Meridian cabin is nice compared to a piston single, I can't imagine 5+ hrs stuffed in it with a weeks worth of luggage, 5 people and no privacy for a bio break. Doesn't sound enjoyable at all. Efficient sure, but that is no comparison to a jet, any jet. There is a lot more lacking in that scenario than just the speed.

I had a Meridian for 3 years and it was a great airplane for what it was. No external baggage was a huge downside for me. Even if it fits it's a backbreaker to load behind the rear seat. Golf clubs and my family of 4...no way. While the Meridian cabin is nice compared to a piston single, I can't imagine 5+ hrs stuffed in it with a weeks worth of luggage, 5 people and no privacy for a bio break. Doesn't sound enjoyable at all. Efficient sure, but that is no comparison to a jet, any jet. There is a lot more lacking in that scenario than just the speed.

Chip-

No. I had a Meridian, which as Im sure you know won't go 5 hrs. I know Chuck has a M600. I used the term Meridian as a generic as the Meridian/M500/M600 have the same size cabin. What was your point?

I am usually the weak link in the bio breaks. But for some reason in spite of drinking 2 coffees, 2 cokes and a monster, didn’t have to break out the travel john. Had my wife and 3 teenagers and nobody had to go. I pack plenty of food and drink on the long trips, and rarely have anyone ask for a break. But people are different. Planning 3 hour legs might work better for some. Typically any one I fly with given the choice chooses non-stop. Makes the trip seem a lot shorter. We fly around 100,000 nm per year. What we save on fuel goes a long way towards covering Capex

In a perfect world I would add a jet to my fleet. If you only have one plane, going to deal with compromises.

(Edit: oops, thought this was the Meridian thread, maybe still helpful)

The Meridian is a 3 hour plane, the M600 is a 6 hour plane. Lots of trade off on both, but at what sounds like your typical use where you're loaded up with a lot of luggage and people I can see how it wouldn't work out. I never minded having to land in the Meridian for fuel/break, was just something we planned for when needed. In the Phenom, it happens a lot less, but we still land on longer trips and we still don't ever use the lav. Pilot johns for everyone! Many times I would have loved more range in the Meridian especially where landing to refuel wasn’t ideal due to weather. But if your typical use is 1000 miles or lots of weight, the Meridian is going to fall short for you. But 5+ hours in any of our planes to me is always long. But still better than Spirit!

Chip-

All of my Citation training has been done at Flightsafety so far. This includes the initial (crew) type rating, and two SPE recurrents. I am due for another one soon.

Flightsafety was cheaper than Simcom, CAE, etc, when I priced them out. Surprising, but true.

My last 61.58 + SPE recurrent was a package deal of two for $12,800 total, $6,400 each. I will use the second one soon.


To put it in other terms, I operate the jet like I operated all of my previous airplanes. I haven't found a "new" way, I am just not using the "jet way" that many think is the only way to operate a jet.

If you take a Bonanza to the Textron service center and give them a blank check, then you are doing it the "jet way". I can believe there are those who do that, but the vast majority don't. If you operate the jet like most operate the Bonanza, then you are doing it like I do.

The primary ingredient to do what I do is knowledge, not time. Hiring expensive consultants who give you expensive advice won't get you that knowledge, and just makes you poorer. For those with excess money, that works. But that isn't the only way to own and operate a jet.

Mike C.

Was it JC that made the argument that his Platypus was faster than a CJ3 when you factored in the extra training time of type ratings and 61.58’s etc? We all probably fly very slow planes if we factor in time spent on aviation forums, but seems like the time spent on maintenance, sourcing parts, shops to deal with refurbs etc, in the legacy jets significantly slows the jet down. I spend very little time on maintenance, probably the most involves me or my partner flying it to Boise, which is the closest and arguably the best SC for our brand. The plane would go annual to annual with one service event per year if we flew 200 or fewer hours. But at 400 hours per year, we go through some expendables, like tires, Beta blocks, prop brushes, sometimes before annual, so we schedule 2 service events per year. Been rare to have any unscheduled events, occasionally will pop in for a bald tire or such. But I am the kind of person that trades a car in when it needs more than oil changes or a set of tires.