BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 07:48

Username Protected wrote:

And there are a lot more piston twins flying than PC-12s.

Not even close. Nothing flies more than PC12 except 737. Check Flightaware today. SR22 is 2nd most common aircraft flying.

Piston twins are the least common airplane flying.

Its 7am and there are

27 PC12 (on Flightaware)
5 Barons (the first piston twin I come across on the list) (on Flightaware)

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 07:52

Username Protected wrote:

I see you make these claims about the PC12 a lot. What percentage of aircraft in the air do you think show up on Flightaware? I'd be willing to bet that it is a fairly small percentage.

Show me a better source for "what's flying".

You "guessing" and "betting" isn't proof at all. At least I'm backing it up with something.

PC12 day in day out is the most common airplane flying on FA 24 hours a day. You're saying that means there are more piston twins flying than any other airplane?

Also, Pilatus sold 80 PC12's last year. Beech is the only company still building piston twins. They sold 19.
https://gama.aero/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 202019.pdf

How does any of the data I've posted equate to "more piston twins flying than PC12's?"

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 08:06

Username Protected wrote:

Also, Pilatus sold 80 PC12's last year. Beech is the only company still building piston twins. They sold 19.
https://gama.aero/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 202019.pdf

How does any of the data I've posted equate to "more piston twins flying than PC12's?"

Jason, Beech is not the only company building piston twins. Piper and Diamond also build piston twins, as does Tecnam. Per GAMA there were 185 multi-engine piston aircraft sold last year. Beech Barons only accounted for 19 of the 185 made & sold. Diamond sold 105 twins between the DA42 & DA62. Piper sold 39 between the Seneca & Seminole. So there are 144 not counting Beech. Since Beech sold 19 Barons, there must be 30 or so units that someone else is making, likely Tecnam.

Understand that piston twins are not taking the GA market by storm, but it is not only Beech Barons that are still being made.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 08:10

Username Protected wrote:

Jason, Beech is not the only company building piston twins. Piper and Diamond also build piston twins. Per GAMA there were 185 multi-engine piston aircraft sold last year. Beech Barons only accounted for 19 of the 185 made & sold.

So you're gonna claim ownership of the trainer planes and the experimentals?

In that case let's take Pilatus out of the argument and insert Cirrus. Cirrus delivered 380 SR's (single engine piston planes) last year.

SR's show up on Flightaware. Trainers and Experimentals do not. But you guys don't own trainer or experimental piston twins. You guys do a completely different type of flying.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 08:13

8:15 AM on Flightaware:

43 PC12 Pilatus PC-12
12 SR22 Cirrus SR-22
8 BE58 Beechcraft Baron (58)
0 DA62 Diamond

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 08:23

Yes there are failures but none that ended up with fatalities.

The TBM had 2-3 engine failures over its life and they all ended up on runway with no damage to the aircraft or fatalities.

Like Jason I take my chances and go by statistics. In a 1000 TBM built only 2-3 engine failures so I dont worry about it. There are worst way to kill yourself.

Username Protected wrote:

Carl sadly it’s not that way in the east. I finally just give up on an efficient altitude and just pull power back to maneuvering speed and bump along until I’m clear of the hornets nest.

It seems they have orders on how to handle the traffic based on corridors because frequently I can’t see another airplane clear air at night but I’m still held down. Around McGuire AFB going south towards Atlantic city or anything towards NYC is tough. I usually go from east long island almost to Albany to get home near AVP just to get a little altitude.

It was interesting in the 421 headed west from PA at 12-16K I owned the airspace. I could go direct just about anywhere and nobody cared. I file airways most of the time with the Kingair but normally I’m headed south or Northeast. It works out easier that way.

Jason how can you say no PC-12 failures? I know of two. One on the round the world flight into the sea of Japan and the other was taxiing for takeoff at Somerset PA 2G9. Low IFR departure. Rolled onto the runway and the turbine blades came out the exhaust stacks. Brand new engine from PW. Luckily they did not get airborne. Not sure of any more and I will admit it’s a very good record if that is the case.

The airport operator at Somerset said PW field service was a joke. Showed up with a truck and didn’t even have an engine hoist.

I have heard and maybe someone else can verify that Pilatus is doing their own PT-6 overhauls now because of problems with Pratt OH.

But I used to maintain several single engine PT6 Otters and there are failures that are not the core engine that will cause a forced landing. Example would be the prop governor slowly feathering the propeller over the course of several min. Yes they are much better than the geared 1340 but governors, fuel pumps propellers, mounts, wiring etc. Can’t keep quiet with waving in my face that twins will kill you. Any of them can kill you just in different ways.

I’m happy with an engine on each wing. 13 failures or precautionary shutdowns due to impending failures over the years. 2 were turbines, inlet ducts started to come apart with Garretts on the Westwind. Shock waves from cropped fan blades installed by Garrett service caused it. They fixed it once and it happened again. Second time even though it had MSP Gold we made them install new blades.

I luckily missed one Allison failure because I found a cracked case on a rear engine in a Skymaster once. Didn’t go at the last min and stayed in the shop to pull the 337 engine. Turbine wheel flew out of the cowling because red tagged parts were installed during overhaul. Single engine and everyone died in the forced landing. Guess I can’t say much bad about the Skymaster after that. Because it broke I’m still here.

https://planecrashmap.com/plane/pa/N450M/

I’ve found Garretts with problems on Caravan conversions. PT6 troubles are well known on this site. They are all machines and will have troubles.

Twins have their place. It’s up to the pilot to squeeze the limited performance out of them if possible to get back to an airport most of the time. If you can’t do this stay with the single. It all depends on what internal risk assessment makes you warm and fuzzy. Saying they will always kill you is flat wrong and just spreads paranoia and makes insurers nervous.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 08:24

Username Protected wrote:

Jason, Beech is not the only company building piston twins. Piper and Diamond also build piston twins. Per GAMA there were 185 multi-engine piston aircraft sold last year. Beech Barons only accounted for 19 of the 185 made & sold.

So you're gonna claim ownership of the trainer planes and the experimentals?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 08:28

Username Protected wrote:

Also, Tecnam may be increasing its build rate of piston twins in light of the contract with Cape Air for its P2012 twin pistons that will be replacing Cape Air's aging fleet of Cessna twins.

Great. Why don't you buy a Tecnam? (not a Baron)

I do big cross country flights with lots of people on board. That's what all PC12's flying are doing too. So that data is important to me. With so many PC12's flying every hour of the day..... where are all the failures and deaths and dead stick landings?

Don't crawfish out of the point I'm making by changing the subject. I've posted a lot of info. You not going to respond to it?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 08:39

Username Protected wrote:

Also, Tecnam may be increasing its build rate of piston twins in light of the contract with Cape Air for its P2012 twin pistons that will be replacing Cape Air's aging fleet of Cessna twins.

Great. Why don't you buy a Tecnam? (not a Baron)

I do big cross country flights with lots of people on board. That's what all PC12's flying are doing too. So that data is important to me. With so many PC12's flying every hour of the day..... where are all the failures and deaths and dead stick landings?

Don't crawfish out of the point I'm making by changing the subject. I've posted a lot of info. You not going to respond to it?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 08:39

Username Protected wrote:

And there are a lot more piston twins flying than PC-12s.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 08:42

8:45AM ET on Flightaware:

52 PC12 Pilatus PC-12
15 SR22 Cirrus SR-22 (most common piston single)
12 BE58 Beechcraft Baron (58) ()most common piston twin)

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 09:15

Username Protected wrote:

That why unattributed it to Mark. Real name Samuel Clemons. :cheers:

Touche, I missed the Sam to Samuel.....

Tim

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 09:21

Username Protected wrote:

And there are a lot more piston twins flying than PC-12s.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 09:24

Username Protected wrote:

[
JC,

Give Bill credit, he nailed you on the statement that Beech was the only company making piston twins. And also, all the companies he listed make certified aircraft; not experimental.

As for the rest of the debate, neither Bill nor I are going to contest what is flying or what is safer.

Tim

Assuming we ignore the 380 piston planes Cirrus delivered.

Also assuming all "piston twins" are the same.

Why don't you want to discuss the real topic?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Apr 2019, 09:33

Username Protected wrote:

And there are a lot more piston twins flying than PC-12s.

TBM 850 vs Cirrus Vision Jet