I love the idea of a 501 but am still unsure of the opex. Thinking I'm going to see how the family actually uses our 36 this year, see how many flights are impacted by wx, (edit - track our incremental Airbnb spend and experiences related to extending our stays due to wx) and consider a step up in 2024. Trying to drum up some consulting work now and may be opening up shop again next year to pay for this with pre tax dollars too.

Technically, yes. You can't fly "contrary to the AFM" and the takeoff charts are in the AFM.

You can find videos of Citation takeoffs that clearly don't meet that rule, of course.


Depends on temperature. At ISA (15C), it is 2930 ft. Here is the chart for MGTOW of 11,850 lbs:

You can see how temperature sensitive it can be when it gets hot.

Another factor is that there are STCs to raise 501 MGTOW up to 12,500 lbs. More weight means longer runway, of course. I don't have charts for that.

The takeoff distance is with an engine failure at V1 on the runway, accelerate to Vr, rotate, and then clear a 35 ft obstacle. The in air distance from Vr to obstacle is about 1000 ft so you can subtract about 1000 ft from the numbers to get your ground run for a normal all engine takeoff. So the numbers have some margins built into them.


They absolutely will. They are also much less affected by runway conditions such as wet, snow, or ice.

The 501 is legal to fly off grass, the only legacy Citation that can in stock configuration. The others need a "gravel kit" which few planes have.

Mike C.

The jet guys are ragging on the Piper M’s, but there is a reason that they are still selling new when the others mentioned here aren’t, and a reason that the used ones are expensive. They are capable, reliable, comfortable, safe, well supported and while aren’t the best at anything, they do everything pretty well.

Try this link to get the AFM and OM:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... share_link

In the OM back are takeoff, landing, climb, and cruise numbers. FM has "official" takeoff numbers.

500 and 501 have the same performance since they are the same plane physically.

Mike C.

CJs are still certainly selling new. An M2, the current Cessna entry jet, is ~$4.6M. It is no slouch at 404 KTAS and 1550 nm range.

If you confine yourself to new, the Piper Ms are the lowest cost turbines out there that I am aware of.

Mike C.

CJs are still certainly selling new. An M2, the current Cessna entry jet, is ~$4.6M. It is no slouch at 404 KTAS and 1550 nm range.


Mike C.

Andy, are your engines on a program and if so, how much do you pay per hour?

The Eclipse seems like a great airframe that got off to an unfortunate start. However, I do see more of them flying on ADS-B these days, so maybe the picture is improving.

The Mustang is killing it as far as daily flight activity, however.

For me, I'd need something that can carry 7-8 people, so the Eclipse, Mustang, and Meridian are all out.

Side note: it's kind of odd that I don't see a lot of Citation 525's flying these days relative to the fleet size.

Their type code is quite forked so when looking at the 525 series (CJ, 1, 2, 3 etc) you have to include all of them: C525, C25A, C25B....

Currently flying:

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a1 ... 5dc,a6747a

Chip-

100 percent Charles - and noteworthy is the hull value is at a number somewhat comfortable in today's owner flown turbine space. A while back when the insurance market got crazy I had a conversation with Ron Gunnerson at Piper and mentioned to him that the M600 was in a very good spot in the insurance market as it carried the lowest hull value (new) of the SEL TP's selling (PC12 was over $5m and TBM 9XX at the time was at $5m). The insurers in that space were definitely capped at $5m values to write single-pilot operations for an owner/operator and the M600 was trucking along around $3.5m (at the time). So it would translate to a significantly lower insurance premium versus a TBM9XX for instance - obviously those two aircraft may not be exact equals in terms of performance, payload, range etc but I spoke with more than 1 new buyer who was surprised what the delta was in insurance cost (at the time) for a $5m or over hull value SEL TP versus the M600 at mid $3m range.

Also somewhat in that space the Epic at the time (LT version exp) was tough to insure and still is - The E1000 market is a bit better today with 1 or 2 insurers jumping into that space in early 2023. If you have an LT you have likely 1 or 2 options even if you are astronaut qualified and 40 years old - Option 1 will be high comparable to anything in the class and Option 2 is double the price and typically the only option for senior pilots. As noted the E1000 market is a tad better with more market pressure as of early this year.

Since Tom inserted insurance into the equation, I will point out that age is becoming a factor for underwriters as well. It is another fixed cost to understand prior to making a decision, I’d compare insurance rates between the Meridian and the 501.

What are you seeing Tom?

Thanks Chip - Well insurance for a Meridian or 501 usually isn't a problem securing mainly due to 'low' hull values of those ships - Meridian (not M500 or 600) certainly sub $1.5 and 501's typically sub 750k valuations. So with Meridians having the lower hull value comparative to say TBM9XX, PC12's in the TP class and the 501 being WELL under Mustangs, CJ's etc - insurance typically is 'reasonable' for either aircraft for a pilot to transition - and usually several underwriting options to pick from. I will say that transition underwriting market is very narrow (markets that will quote you) over 65 and certainly over age 70. I always advise clients that if you have turbine or jet fever don't wait until you are 73 to pull the trigger - you will pay significantly higher rates and it will be more difficult to come by in your 70's.

Aha. I thought something was odd. Thanks, Chip.

Do underwriters look at the entire PA46 family of aircraft when insuring Meridians? Or do they somehow divide that risk pool into piston versus turbine?

The PA46 accident history is not particularly good. I get 112 fatal accidents in all PA46 models since 1984. While maybe some of these can be reasonably affect by engine type, I suspect the vast majority aren't.

Also, there are 384 PA46 accidents (non fatal included). That's kind of a lot, about 10 per year over the last 39 years.

In the last 10 years, 144 accidents, so about 14 or so per year, with 36 fatal accidents, 3 to 4 per year. Not very nice numbers.

Mike C.

convert those to dollars and you'll know why premiums are high....
Do underwriters look at the entire PA46 family of aircraft when insuring Meridians? Or do they somehow divide that risk pool into piston versus turbine?

The PA46 accident history is not particularly good. I get 112 fatal accidents in all PA46 models since 1984. While maybe some of these can be reasonably affect by engine type, I suspect the vast majority aren't.

Also, there are 384 PA46 accidents (non fatal included). That's kind of a lot, about 10 per year over the last 39 years.

In the last 10 years, 144 accidents, so about 14 or so per year, with 36 fatal accidents, 3 to 4 per year. Not very nice numbers.

Mike C.

Do underwriters look at the entire PA46 family of aircraft when insuring Meridians? Or do they somehow divide that risk pool into piston versus turbine?

Mike C.