BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Mar 2019, 00:22

Username Protected wrote:

It's been very interesting to read these jet and turbine/tp threads.

When I see these incredible ongoing costs, I can't help but wonder if the business model REQUIRES it.

When one considers the infrastructure required to support the airplane or engine (both from a regulatory and owner-expectation standpoint), those costs start to make some sense.

Put another way: would an "open source" airplane or engine be viable?

What I mean is this: imagine an airplane or engine built with as few "custom" parts as possible; that came with a maintenance manual that referenced common and acceptable practices wherever possible; released drawings and specifications for every part; put very little limitations on maintenance and inpections... etc.

Sounds great, right?

Now, would that company make enough money selling just new units to remain viable for very long? Wouldn't they still be "on the hook" for support of the fleet as it aged?

This could probably be its own thread.

One word. Liability.

This stuff isn’t expensive because of the cost of goods sold, it isn’t expensive because Pratt or Williams happen to be extraordinarly greedy.

This stuff is expensive because of lawsuits.

You simply can’t make an airplane or an engine cheap because someone has to pay the settlement every single time an airplane crashes.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 31 Mar 2019, 13:05

Username Protected wrote:

Well I think you write a check to Pratt, and Standard Aero does the physical work. IIRC.

I was told that wasn’t an option with the 600 series

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Apr 2019, 13:21

As far as Standard, we use those guys, so I'll get an answer on this and let you guys know.

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=165478&start=15

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Apr 2019, 13:29

Standard Aero (which is still hard for me to say because we are really talking about Vector) no longer does any work on the P&W 600 series. I was about 95% sure this was the case, but didn't want to pop off without double checking.

A few months ago I had the opportunity to visit their facility in Prince Edward Island and I could not have been more impressed. The facility is first class and the people are awesome! They can't help you with Mustang motors, but they are our go to shop on PT6A's!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Apr 2019, 15:07

You like them better than Dallas Airmotive?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Apr 2019, 15:36

Username Protected wrote:

The facility is first class and the people are awesome! They can't help you with Mustang motors, but they are our go to shop on PT6A's!

Chip, who do you like for JT15D (-5D's in our case) for Hot Section? We have some coming up this Summer...

Lance

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 Apr 2019, 18:21

Username Protected wrote:

Chip, who do you like for JT15D (-5D's in our case) for Hot Section? We have some coming up this Summer...

Lance

Answered in the engine thread...
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=165478&p=2368439#p2368439

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2019, 12:39

Username Protected wrote:

Here's what Williams did in a nutshell, they designed a more fuel efficient engine and then turned right around and charged a premium for the upkeep of that engine that washes out the savings.

That's not true with any fair analysis.

FJ44 versus JT15D series, the FJ44 saves enough fuel for the overall cost per hour to be similar.

FJ44-3A is $160/hour TAP Blue. Burns ~60 GPH in high cruise, $240/hour in fuel. $400/hour for thrust. This is a reliable number since the engine is on program

JT15D-5 is about $500K to overhaul and $150K to HSI for 3500 hours cycle, $185/hour. Burns 80 GPH in high cruise, $320/hour. $500/hour for thrust. This is an unreliable number since you have no engine program.

So full cycle, the FJ44 is cheaper to operate, and you have engine coverage, and you can carry more payload or go further due to lower fuel burn. If fuel prices spike up, advantage grows. If your JT15D has a major problem, your marginal savings are way gone.

The only way JT15D wins is if you can find a supply of used engines for a lot less than $185/hour remaining time, or you run past TBO. Even then, that's pretty close. The other way JT15D wins is if Williams jacks the program prices, that is, uses their leverage to extract money. They can't really do that because that would affect OEM sales.

Now FJ44 versus PW500 series (Bravo, Encore) changes the numbers a bit. The PW500 series is much closer to the fuel specifics of FJ44, so fuel cost is similar. But the engine program at PWC for the PW500 series is over $200/hour (from a Bravo owner). From what I can tell, Williams enjoys a better reputation for their program, too. I also don't know if independent shops can HSI/OH the PW500 series (I think they can?).

The JT15D route is more control for the owner, less reliant on Williams good graces. But past history of TAP fees suggest a reasonable rate increase per year, so Williams seems to be "reasonable" so far.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2019, 12:44

Username Protected wrote:

Williams calls the OH a Major Periodic Inspection that makes it mandatory for Part 91.

What Williams calls it is irrelevant. The FAA clarified that recently.

What is actually DONE is relevant, not the name. The FAA said inspections (checking for airworthiness) is required. Overhaul (adding new life) is not. This is true EVEN IF the overhaul actions are included in the inspection manual.

For Williams, the point is moot. You can't ask them to do a HSI, they won't, they will do everything in their MPI manuals. The reason overhaul is required is that Williams is the only source for it and they insist on it.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2019, 13:27

Username Protected wrote:

Here's what Williams did in a nutshell, they designed a more fuel efficient engine and then turned right around and charged a premium for the upkeep of that engine that washes out the savings.

That's not true with any fair analysis.

FJ44 versus JT15D series, the FJ44 saves enough fuel for the overall cost per hour to be similar.

FJ44-3A is $160/hour TAP Blue. Burns ~60 GPH in high cruise, $240/hour in fuel. $400/hour for thrust. This is a reliable number since the engine is on program

JT15D-5 is about $500K to overhaul and $150K to HSI for 3500 hours cycle, $185/hour. Burns 80 GPH in high cruise, $320/hour. $500/hour for thrust. This is an unreliable number since you have no engine program.

So full cycle, the FJ44 is cheaper to operate, and you have engine coverage, and you can carry more payload or go further due to lower fuel burn. If fuel prices spike up, advantage grows. If your JT15D has a major problem, your marginal savings are way gone.

The only way JT15D wins is if you can find a supply of used engines for a lot less than $185/hour remaining time, or you run past TBO. Even then, that's pretty close. The other way JT15D wins is if Williams jacks the program prices, that is, uses their leverage to extract money. They can't really do that because that would affect OEM sales.

Now FJ44 versus PW500 series (Bravo, Encore) changes the numbers a bit. The PW500 series is much closer to the fuel specifics of FJ44, so fuel cost is similar. But the engine program at PWC for the PW500 series is over $200/hour (from a Bravo owner). From what I can tell, Williams enjoys a better reputation for their program, too. I also don't know if independent shops can HSI/OH the PW500 series (I think they can?).

The JT15D route is more control for the owner, less reliant on Williams good graces. But past history of TAP fees suggest a reasonable rate increase per year, so Williams seems to be "reasonable" so far.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2019, 13:51

What about a Cirrus Jet? I looked in one the other day and I was amazed at the room and the hauling ability of this thing. Oh,,,the guy also said he keeps it in a T-hangar........!!

:cheers:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Apr 2019, 17:35

Much debated and ridiculed here on BT... the Cirrus fills a niche.

I think Mike and Jason are partners on one... but they won’t admit it!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Apr 2019, 06:47

Username Protected wrote:

JT15D-5 is about $500K to overhaul and $150K to HSI for 3500 hours cycle, $185/hour. Burns 80 GPH in high cruise, $320/hour. $500/hour for thrust. This is an unreliable number since you have no engine program.
Mike C.

Mike

Hale Aviation outside of Atlanta beats those prices quite easily. We are doing two hots with them now right about $90k. Not really much difference in the -4 thru -5D motors when it comes to pricing. Everything depends on the condition/cycles on the blades. Used motors are going anywhere from $100 to $125 per remaining hours.

Best
Gary

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2019, 23:12

Username Protected wrote:

We are doing two hots with them now right about $90k.

$90K each side or total?

Also, since you are in the middle of this, you haven't received the final invoice. Let us know the real price at the end of the day.

Many (most?) of the JT15D out there don't have the newer on condition HT blades, and the costs are higher without that.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Apr 2019, 09:10

Username Protected wrote:

We are doing two hots with them now right about $90k.

$90K each side or total?

Also, since you are in the middle of this, you haven't received the final invoice. Let us know the real price at the end of the day.

Many (most?) of the JT15D out there don't have the newer on condition HT blades, and the costs are higher without that.

Mike C.

The Best Light Jet is...