Krzysztof,

SimCom is THE place to go for Nava-Joe training. If you get 'serial' about this, I'll let you borrow one of their manuals to pre-study before you go. You'll get your very own spiffy one upon arrival. ME

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your offer. If my crew scheduling lady approves my vacation in March (will know by Feb. 15) I will fly to FLA for a week or so, and will drive to Simcom, and take a look, and if I like it, I'll get all the training material. Thanks for the recommendation. One word from "the Navajo Guru" that's all it takes! Can't wait to see this place.

KW

I am working on my avatar. Today I went to my local "Kinkos" with a silhouette of a Navajo. As I have too many pixels in it, a lady unsuccessfully tried to size it down to 100X100 pixels. So she calls another lady, and says "you know that little ultralight you worked on". The Navajo is officially an ultralight now...



KW

Krzysztof,

Sim-Com is fine and their simulators serve a purpose. They teach procedures. They are in no way a realistic representation of the performance of a 40 year old airplane in the real world....

I have several hundred hours in various Navajos and you can spend all the time you want in the performance charts, but they were created with brand new airplanes, flown by company test pilots whose continued employment was based on aircraft sales.

I have no idea how much light twin time you have, but my sense is, based on your comments here is that you have a very optimistic expectation of the single engine performance, and you will be very disappointed the first time you climb up over the airport and feather an engine... The Navajo has very docile S/E handling, but very marginal performance..... In spite of what you might read in the charts.....

If you are in a Navajo with the gear is down or airport property remaining, unless you are alone and low on gas, if the engine quits, put it on the ground. If the gear is in transit you can attempt to fly, but be prepared to land under control on something ahead of the airplane.... Because you just might have too....

What ever you do, do not EVER try to climb in a light twin that doesn't want to based on what you read in the performance charts... In short, when the engine quits, fly the airplane you in, not the book that came with it... They will very likely tell different stories.

Hi Doug,

My experience with airplane performance graphs is that they are accurate, or very close. I have flown probably some 30 odd airplane types in my lifetime. As for the airplane condition, if it's rigged properly, otherwise maintained well, the compression is good, then the horsepower is a function of Manifold Pressure and RPM. So if the book says sea level power at 29" MP and 2700 RPM is 300 HP, then that's what it is, or very close to it. The airplane will perform as well, or almost as well as a new one.

The first time I feathered a prop in a piston twin happened very long time ago. I used to train Multi Engine ATP's, ME Instructors, ME Ratings, and ME recurrent training. At altitude, seven or eight thousand feet, we used to feather and shut-down engines. My favored area was just southwest of Orange County and Newburgh airports. Did many single-engine missed approaches from Cat I ILS minimums of 200 feet (everybody said you can't do that...). Most of my piston twin time is simulated (zero thrust) single-engine. The most difficult feat was during rotation, when I or my student would "zero thrust an engine", effectively simulating an engine failure, prop feathered. Usually we were below gross weight. We were able to coax it up off the runway, and very slowly climb, maneuver for an instrument approach, do a missed approach, and continue flying most of the time on one engine. I've done that already, many times.

Today, people live way too fast to notice the subtle things in life. It's either an 1800 fpm climb or crash landing straight ahead. Nothing in between. 50 fpm or 100 fpm, that's no climb...

KW

KW,

It is none of my business, but you should pay close attention to what Doug is trying to tell you. I've flown awhile myself and some of your comments fly in the face of many years of my own experience.

Or don't pay attention and become a statistic. Your choice.

Jgreen

This is why I suggested Simcom. They will teach him a proper technique, and he might listen to them.

We'll see in March whether they can teach me anything, or perhaps I might teach them a thing or two.

By the way, I have been teaching proper multi-engine ATP techniques more than 25 years ago, before SIMCOM even offered a Navajo training. Were you even flying at all at that time...

KW

I wish you good luck.

Actually I was... I have been plowing around in tired old freighters, light twins, and Warbirds for over 10,000 hours and over 30 years... I have more feather and restarts than I could even estimate, and have lost count of how many twins I have feathered and brought home for real.. Three times with unfeathered (runaway) windmilling propellers... Let me know when you find the performance charts for that?

I will say again, and you can accept or disregard this information. The performance charts on CAR-3 and Part 23 airplanes are universally optimistic and should be taken with a heaping helping of salt....

This was for somebody else. But you're welcome to express your views and opinions as well.

KW

That is very respectful experience, not taken lightly here.

KW

I hear you KW. I'm not old enough to give you advice.

If I want to learn about an Airbus someday I'll look you up.

May the force be with you.

Well, thanks.

Please do look me up.

All the best.

KW

Just to clarify...I am not pushing because I don't think the conversation is productive.

I do not agree with your techniques. I have owned those twins listed on my signature/avatar. I have trained heavily in all of them. I have also attended Simcom every year I have flown twins. I have lost 3 engines while flying them (1 58P, 2 421C). My last shutdown was last week in the Navajo for fun while thinking of this thread. I made book numbers for a 310 OEI climb chart! (Only problem is it took a $230K Panther conversion to do it).

I could show you many regimes where book numbers will not be met. I have experienced them. I could show you that flying OEI with simulated thrust produces better performance than actually feathering. I could show you how flight well below blue line OEI with gear down will not allow you accelerate or climb, and will definitely not allow for both.

There is no sense in continuing to argue. Our points have been made. You are definitely much older and have been flying for longer. I'm not sure how that changes physics and first-hand knowledge but I do respect all experience in general.

The best thing you can do for yourself is become a student of Doug R on this forum. I am a student of Doug R and I am a better pilot for it.

I sincerely wish you the best and I'm happy to share Navajo info as I am flying and maintaining mine around 300 hours annually. Good luck on the hunt.