I agree. But without an ODP, DP/SID, runway analysis DP, or visual conditions, how will you safely maintain your own terrain/obstacle separation?

There's no FAR that says that you must use one of the above, but I contend that without one of the above, you've started the first link in the accident chain.

Any number of ways.

Ded reckoning.

Plot a course using navaids.

Plot a course using GPS.

Use terrain map page.

Use synth viz.

If you are responsible for your own terrain clearance, you can do it any way you want using any technique or technology you wish.


That can be said about every takeoff.

Personally, if I have synth viz or a GPS plotted terrain map page, I am FAR less likely to hit something than following some clumsy ODP based on VOR radials.

Mike C.

Correct. You start with less desirable methods (dead reckoning) and finish strong with syn vision and terrain awareness. Comfortable with gps navigation coupled with synviz and terrain on a Garmin 796 or iPad. Plus being a turbine we have enhanced ground prox.

From planning a route I specified direct mmm v8 6000 meads 9000 v562 PGS and the dsert2 arrival. They gave me 11,000 for until I got clear of the inbound Vegas traffic at 12,000

Check it

Why apg was useless is because they calculated precise numbers (their legacey). Well the airport is reporting a 2% grade but if you take the raw data it is a 2.01 grade which evidently means it exceeds the point where Cessna has data. Hence you have no right to land or depart that airfed in a jet. It should be closed to jets ....


Now we are on to some meaty albeit less titillating vs other topics. I draw no judgement other to give consideration to that maniacal modern day philosopher who once stated that all work and no play makes jack a dull boy. He was right. But didn't handle it correctly. Don't be that guy.

Well if you were 135 you would need to wait until you could depart VFR - 135.225(h).

Being PT91 I would take the tailwind and depart 19. You didn't say what the ceiling was and how much room you had to manuver under the clouds deck. I would really try and get my IFR clearance on the ground and not be trying to pickup in the air with a low ceiling. Especially SP. The supermarket jet in GA tried to do that a number of years ago and flew into terrain.

So depart 19 with an IFR clearance. I would go direct MMM and then turn south towards Lake Mead until ATC can provide terrain separation. I can climb at over 4000 fpm and can get over 8000' in less then 10 miles. Even at 2000 fpm you should get to 10K in about 15 miles which is a bit past MMM.

Real issue is what happens if you go OEI on takeoff? Now you need an escape route. That's when you use your GPS Map to go south to Lake Mead as you climb.

You have TAWS display?

It is interesting that 67L is not in CPCALC either.

AFD says 2.0%.

It is interesting that 67L is not in CPCALC either.

AFD says 2.0%.

And you have the best terrain avoidance system, climbing with two turbine engines.

Mike C.

And you have the best terrain avoidance system, climbing with two turbine engines.

Mike C.

Correct. And without some sort of survey and route, (ODP, APG, DP, etc) you're truly a "test pilot" when it comes to your terrain avoidance procedure, and what climb gradient that it requires.

IMO, this is a big weakness in Part 91. It allows you to do things that 121/135 cannot do. Why can't they do them? Because best practices and safety dictate the prudent way to do things.

If a procedure isn't good enough to do with paying passengers onboard, then it's not good enough to do with myself, and loved ones onboard. For me, safety trumps all.

To me, being a test pilot is when data is not available. Between OEI data in the AFM and terrain data on a sectional a PT91 pilot can determine if he has a reasonable OEI path that is safe. Takes some work versus using a canned path given to you.

Yes. It displays on the radar display. You can manually select it or it will override if there is an issue. The 796 has a great terrain display as well.

Yet, you fly a single engine piston airplane.

What is your gradient with one engine out?

Mike C.

The correct way to assess which runway is to use the POH to determine take off distance in both directions given winds and grade. Down wind down grade was something like 400 feet longer (2800 feet total) which on a 5000 ft runway was fine. Plus is was into descending terrain.

Celiing was 3500 feet . Viz was around 5 mi due to rain.

We only weighed 12,000 lbs so performance was really good even if OEI.

I also reached out to a long time flying mentor with lots of citation hours. We went through the charts and the proposed departure plan. Essentially got a second opinion.

Bottomline there was a lot going on that really required more assessment than your typical flight. The lack of APG data was confounding. The difference between a reported 2% grade and a calculated 2.01% grade.

Better than if he was a single turbine, or a piston anything.


At KTEX, if you get 10 ft high above the runway, you can fly to an airport without hitting terrain. The issue is lateral guidance not vertical.

Mike C.