How are parts avialablitiy?

Mustang is a unicorn jet which has parts problems since it shares so little in common with other Citations (there are Mustangs AOG right now for a precooler issue).

Mike C.

What does a 10,000 hour $575,000 501 do for engine overhauls? Are they required for Part 91 flying? I'm assuming a plane like that isn't on engine programs? Just out of pocket expense for an HSI or overhaul?

Chip-

How are parts avialablitiy?

There are a number of independent shops that work on JT15D engines and can do HSI, OH, etc. The engine is not locked to the OEM like Williams FJ44 or some of PWC engines like PW500 and PW600 series.


Overhauls are not required for part 91.

The JT15D is a lot simpler than a PT6. No prop or controls, no intake ice controls, no auto feather, etc.


Rare to find legacy JT15D powered Citations on engine programs. The Bravo and Encore series on PW500 often are. A few JT15D on V and Ultra are on JSSI, but it is pricey and doesn't pencil out economically. The market tends not to value them that highly.


Yes.

Mike C.

Just looked at Controller and man Meridians have got expensive. And the M5-600 is really expensive.

I didn’t see an older Meridian for under $1.2m and some of the 600’s are $3M plus. Dang.

Maybe the average owner does not have any friends or family. But we often have 6 or more flying with us.

Knowing what I know now the only way I could see having a Meridian is if it just my wife and I and shorter trips with the flexibility to cancel when it’s ugly weather. But with any friends or family you need a larger plane and one that enroute weather does not matter.


My 501sp is on program and I love it. I can’t afford to buy a new PT6 or any turbine if it fails. I have no problem paying the program fees to insure I don’t have a really bad day.


Mike

How much are those fees?

General question for the jet guys:

Overhauls aren't required for part 91, but adherence to balanced field length is - correct?

I found a BFL of 3600' at sea level/gross/ISA for a 501SP. Is that number correct?

Meridians will certainly get in and out of smaller places in case that's important to the owner.

How much are those fees?

We are building some really nice hot section only engines for reasonable prices. They aren't cheap anymore but they have quality parts and great life remaining. Net jets ran their JT15Ds to 11,200 hours before overhauling them so why would the average owner/operator want to adhere to 3,500 hours?

To the best of my knowledge you can totally ignore (not saying I do this or recommend this) the book numbers on a 501 because it's part 23 vs a part 25 500, 550 or 560. Honestly, the book numbers for take-off are excessively conservative with a huge safety margin (which is a good thing). No such thing as BFL in the Citation flight manual. The takeoff numbers are the length required to lose an engine at V1 and climb to 35 ft; they aren't ground roll with 2 engines running.

[/quote] About 195 a side for TAP blue. That's the best Williams coverage. My Williams powered 501 recently had scheduled check 1,2 and 3 done. The 3 is basically an HSI (hot) and was fully covered by Williams. Including some unexpected engine work that would've been 4-500k!!! off program. Check 1 and 2 are oil, filters, nozzles, ignitors etc. on a 300/600 hour cycle and were done at the SC and covered by Williams. The invoice to Williams for labor alone! (williams shipped them the parts) for the check 1&2 was north of 48k!
Definitely good value.[/quote]

I've done 30+ JT15D hots in the last 12 months and the average cost has been about $25K. Sure, it could be worse if you need blades but usually not. The Pratt version of check 1 and 2 as mentioned above is about $2,500 and usually much much less. Ignitors are on condition, the oil filter is about $100 and the oil is usually changed on condition too (usually 900 hours).

Technically, yes. You can't fly "contrary to the AFM" and the takeoff charts are in the AFM.

You can find videos of Citation takeoffs that clearly don't meet that rule, of course.


Depends on temperature. At ISA (15C), it is 2930 ft. Here is the chart for MGTOW of 11,850 lbs:

You can see how temperature sensitive it can be when it gets hot.

Another factor is that there are STCs to raise 501 MGTOW up to 12,500 lbs. More weight means longer runway, of course. I don't have charts for that.

The takeoff distance is with an engine failure at V1 on the runway, accelerate to Vr, rotate, and then clear a 35 ft obstacle. The in air distance from Vr to obstacle is about 1000 ft so you can subtract about 1000 ft from the numbers to get your ground run for a normal all engine takeoff. So the numbers have some margins built into them.


They absolutely will. They are also much less affected by runway conditions such as wet, snow, or ice.

The 501 is legal to fly off grass, the only legacy Citation that can in stock configuration. The others need a "gravel kit" which few planes have.

Mike C.

TAP Blue is the only Williams coverage now as new owners will not have an option to use TAP Elite any more. The only people on TAP Elite are long time owners grandfathered in. TAP Blue has extra coverage for FOD and corrosion versus TAP Elite.

The Williams ecosystem is very different from JT15D. There is basically no choice but to pay Williams the hourly figure ($390/hour). For that money, you get scheduled and unscheduled heavy maintenance so you don't have to do HSI, OH, etc. You have insurance against unscheduled events. This fits what some folks want. If you don' do the program, Williams is the only place that can do HSI and OH on the engine, and they will charge MORE for those events than the program payments would have been. Also, you get no option to fly past OH since Williams won't let you.


Over a 5000 hour FJ44 TBO, the program costs $1.95M for a pair of engines. Yup, more than the plane is typically worth.

The JT15D ecosystem is way different. It does burn more fuel, but it is a robust engine with a lot of field support at independent shops. You can fly past OH with just doing HSI.

And it can have TRs.

Mike C.

What shop is doing the HSI?

Mike C.

Jason have you been talked in or out yet?