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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 25 Nov 2014, 22:56 
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Look at it this way....

Now you are paying "regular" price. For years you have been enjoying the piston discount.

:D

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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 25 Nov 2014, 23:22 
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Probably another reason while I am in a single from here on out. Neat article today in a business aviation magazine. It was titled "Will you be the last owner of your airplane?" It was talking about how much more modern the new aircraft are. Gave way to thinking about how hard it will be to sell a complex old plane that pays the same or more ramp fees as a new modern plane.

My Glasair looks like a toy to most FBOs. I like it that way.

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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 25 Nov 2014, 23:23 
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Yes, read some of Dave's posts about the turbine tax. There are plenty of places that charge $$$$$$$$ for turbines and exploit whatever monopoly they have.

I think the decline in GA volume has forced a lot of people into fairly rapacious business practices towards turbines. Sutton's Law at work.

So would you be charged more for a turbine powered Bonanza than a regular piston version?


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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 25 Nov 2014, 23:27 
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PC12 gets charged as a "single". It's nice.


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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 25 Nov 2014, 23:29 
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Username Protected wrote:
In fairness to the FBO's, I think some sort of turbine "tax" is appropriate. They're more expensive, they are often easier to break and more expensive to fix. And it's difficult to price out granular charges model by model. So piston singles get averaged. And turboprops (likely single and double) get averaged. The system sacrifices accuracy for efficiency ... and the PA46/P46T comparison is a great example.

How is a turbine easier to break? :scratch:


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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 00:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
How is a turbine easier to break? :scratch:


They are generally bigger - easier to hit things while towing

They often have restrictions to how they can be towed (don't turn more than X degrees, or need to remove some pin to tow, etc)

--------------------

Getting back to the "charge them more because they can pay" scheme. The alternate scheme would be to take the FBO required annual revenue and divide it by the number of operations. In this scenario, let's say everyone has a ramp fee of $100. There are two FBO's at the airport and they say "you know, I bet we'd get more piston traffic if we charged them a little bit less. Call it $75 for pistons and we can charge $125 for turbines. We have X advantage over the other FBO and the turbines aren't going to change plans over $25 but the pistons will.
Piston volume then jumps 50% and turbine volume drops 2%.

It's easy to see how this would play out.


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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 00:29 
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So would you be charged more for a turbine powered Bonanza than a regular piston version?


The FBO's that are sophisticated enough to charge big bucks generally have an N-number based system to assign types. STC turboprop conversions often fly under the radar here.


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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 01:07 
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I have an MU2 Solitaire that takes up just a little less surface area than an Aerostar.

Why the fu(k do these places I visit think I'll pay three times as much for a hangar? I've bargained my way around this, but honestly, I feel like kicking someone's ass. Is it just me? Maybe I'm just cheap...wasn't this way in the 90's when I had my Cheyenne IIXL...

This is EXACTLY why I haven't pulled the trigger on an MU-2!

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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 01:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
I have an MU2 Solitaire that takes up just a little less surface area than an Aerostar.

Why the fu(k do these places I visit think I'll pay three times as much for a hangar? I've bargained my way around this, but honestly, I feel like kicking someone's ass. Is it just me? Maybe I'm just cheap...wasn't this way in the 90's when I had my Cheyenne IIXL...

This is EXACTLY why I haven't pulled the trigger on an MU-2!



While certainly not the only reason, I have the same thoughts every time I get serious about a twin turbine. It definitely takes some of the shine off of the apple.
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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 04:04 
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Anyone who says "it's ok, it's capitalism", you're absolutely right. That works both ways; I can choose to go someplace else. I always check to see what the fuel price is, and I use CAA or just call and bargain on fuel. I need to ask the same questions about hangars.

This really was more fun in the 90's, but there's no going back so I'll just work with what I've got.


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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 05:28 
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As far as I know, no one is being forced to rent the hangar. If it is too expensive then park out on the ramp. Or build your own hangar and charge everyone else what they feel is a fair price, not what you think you need to charge.


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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 08:07 
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Most place charge it as a turbine, cheaper than a King Air or jet but more than a single piston.

Its frustrating when you pay 2-3 times the parking of a Malibu for roughly the same size footprint.


Username Protected wrote:
PC12 gets charged as a "single". It's nice.

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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 08:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
Anyone who says "it's ok, it's capitalism", you're absolutely right. That works both ways; I can choose to go someplace else. I always check to see what the fuel price is, and I use CAA or just call and bargain on fuel. I need to ask the same questions about hangars.

This really was more fun in the 90's, but there's no going back so I'll just work with what I've got.

Agreed.

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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 08:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
Most place charge it as a turbine, cheaper than a King Air or jet but more than a single piston.

Its frustrating when you pay 2-3 times the parking of a Malibu for roughly the same size footprint.

It just depends where you go. I have yet to pay more than $50 a night. Most places it's $30. Teterboro is 3 nights free with 100 gallons.

I'm paying $180 a night this week in Aspen and that's by faaaaaaaar the most I ever pay.


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 Post subject: Re: So I have a turbine, now I'm a sap?
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 08:40 
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Is that for a hangar or just a spot on the ramp?


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