11 Jun 2025, 17:53 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 09 Jun 2014, 21:20 |
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Joined: 02/09/09 Posts: 6298 Post Likes: +3056 Company: RNP Aviation Services Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
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Username Protected wrote: Climbing through 18K we were at 110 indicated to eek out 800 FPM - this was 500 lbs under gross @ 7000 pounds. My Duke was 1000 FPM all the way to 23k using 130 knots indicated at that altitude and 140 knots below 12k at gross weight of 7000 pounds. 110 KIAS puts you way on the back side of the power curve! The book recommends 120 KIAS. I usually climb at 140 KIAS and see 700-800 FPM up to at least FL210, MGTOW (7500#), at ISA +15, Cruise Climb power settings.. We just added the wheel covers and see about 100-200 FPM better on the one flight I had up high to test them. Jason
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 09 Jun 2014, 21:52 |
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Joined: 01/11/14 Posts: 64 Post Likes: +35 Company: Sabris Corporation
Aircraft: A36
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We operate five 421Cs and have a fair amount of time in Dukes. There are a couple of points that have been missed. The 421C is a lot less expensive to operate than a Duke. Start with the engines. Duke engines have a 1400 hour TBO and cost $65,000 each to overhaul. We routinely get the 421C engines overhauled for $42-45,000 each with a 1600 hour TBO. Annual inspections on Dukes cost about $5,000 more than a 421C. Starters and Alternators on Dukes are more expensive than on 421Cs. There are failure modes of the electrical system in Dukes where failure of certain electrical components takes out other components. 421C system problems are rare. Some Duke operators report only getting 50 landings out of a set of brakes.
A 421C requires half the runway of a Duke. The yaw dampers of Dukes fail regularly and the airplane is almost impossible to make comfortable to fly without an operating yaw damper.
Duke annual training usually must be provided by a simulator training company and carries a high price. 421C training can be provided by a large number of local training entities at a much lower price.
It is interesting to note that a Duke can be purchased for about half the price of a 421C. Could that be because most people are aware of these issues and no one wants them?
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 09 Jun 2014, 22:01 |
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Joined: 12/19/08 Posts: 12160 Post Likes: +3541
Aircraft: C55
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Username Protected wrote: We operate five 421Cs and have a fair amount of time in Dukes. There are a couple of points that have been missed. The 421C is a lot less expensive to operate than a Duke. Start with the engines. Duke engines have a 1400 hour TBO and cost $65,000 each to overhaul. We routinely get the 421C engines overhauled for $42-45,000 each with a 1600 hour TBO. Annual inspections on Dukes cost about $5,000 more than a 421C. Starters and Alternators on Dukes are more expensive than on 421Cs. There are failure modes of the electrical system in Dukes where failure of certain electrical components takes out other components. 421C system problems are rare. Some Duke operators report only getting 50 landings out of a set of brakes.
A 421C requires half the runway of a Duke. The yaw dampers of Dukes fail regularly and the airplane is almost impossible to make comfortable to fly without an operating yaw damper.
Duke annual training usually must be provided by a simulator training company and carries a high price. 421C training can be provided by a large number of local training entities at a much lower price.
It is interesting to note that a Duke can be purchased for about half the price of a 421C. Could that be because most people are aware of these issues and no one wants them? I agree and disagree. I put a starter on my Duke for $400 brand new and it took 10 minutes as it sits right in front. Try that on the Continental. My Duke had alternators instead of generators and are not expensive. My Duke engines were 1700 hour TBO and the former owner ran the previous 6 engines to 2100+ hours. You will likely put cylinders on the 421 before TBO. The yaw damper is a problem on the Duke and is not fun to fly without it working. The Duke does not require 2x the runway. I could take off easily from 3500 ft at gross which means the 421 can do 1750? A Duke in the same condition as a 421C is 1/3 the cost or less.
_________________ The kid gets it all. Just plant us in the damn garden, next to the stupid lion.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 09 Jun 2014, 22:02 |
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Joined: 12/25/12 Posts: 3868 Post Likes: +4084 Location: KRHV San Jose, CA
Aircraft: A36, R44, C525
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Username Protected wrote: Local 135 operation needed a co-pilot today, so I helped out. It is a C model with the trailing gear. We were at 7400 lbs which is 400 lbs heavier than my Duke.
It has been many years since I have flown a 421. It gets off the ground a little quicker and the cabin is certainly better for passengers. With that said, the Duke flies so much nicer than this plane. The Duke also climbs 1000 FPM at 140 knots using the same fuel this plane does 125 at 800 FPM. The Lycoming engines also run smoother IMO. The Duke is also faster at 14k using the same fuel flow. I can see why charter prefers the 421 for better cabin entry and seating, but for personal transportation the Duke is much better. Your right...........
_________________ Rocky Hill
Altitude is Everything.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 10 Jun 2014, 06:57 |
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Joined: 10/27/10 Posts: 10790 Post Likes: +6891 Location: Cambridge, MA (KLWM)
Aircraft: 1997 A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: A fair comparison would be to fly them both at the "same" Gross weight. I think the rate of climb, speed and fuel burn would a little better or the same as a Duke. The Duke has a loud and smaller cabin, costs less to buy but the same direct operating cost. Some think the Duke is better looking and that is a matter of opinion. IMO, the most fair comparison is: pick a cabin load and a distance, add that cabin load, required fuel and reserves, and go fly. That penalizes airplanes with high empty weight or high fuel burn appropriately. Most of us think, "I need to fly my family to grandma's", not "I need to go fly a 6600# airplane today." Dukes are dead-sexy on the ramp; 421 cabin is very comfortable and amazingly quiet in cruise. Take the average family, fly them in both airplanes, and I don't think anyone who sits in the back will pick the Duke as the winner.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 10 Jun 2014, 08:11 |
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Joined: 12/10/08 Posts: 10014 Post Likes: +2440 Location: Arizona (KSEZ)
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Username Protected wrote: We operate five 421Cs and have a fair amount of time in Dukes. There are a couple of points that have been missed. The 421C is a lot less expensive to operate than a Duke. Start with the engines. Duke engines have a 1400 hour TBO and cost $65,000 each to overhaul. We routinely get the 421C engines overhauled for $42-45,000 each with a 1600 hour TBO. Annual inspections on Dukes cost about $5,000 more than a 421C. Starters and Alternators on Dukes are more expensive than on 421Cs. There are failure modes of the electrical system in Dukes where failure of certain electrical components takes out other components. 421C system problems are rare. Some Duke operators report only getting 50 landings out of a set of brakes.
A 421C requires half the runway of a Duke. The yaw dampers of Dukes fail regularly and the airplane is almost impossible to make comfortable to fly without an operating yaw damper.
Duke annual training usually must be provided by a simulator training company and carries a high price. 421C training can be provided by a large number of local training entities at a much lower price.
It is interesting to note that a Duke can be purchased for about half the price of a 421C. Could that be because most people are aware of these issues and no one wants them? In addition, the whole tail section of the Duke is Magnesium which makes the elevator corrosion issues on Bonanzas and Barons seem minor!
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 10 Jun 2014, 11:15 |
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Joined: 03/17/08 Posts: 6496 Post Likes: +14303 Location: KMCW
Aircraft: B55 PII,F-1,L-2,OTW,
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I love the Duke, but the C-400s have the best cockpit in GA... Period... Comfortable, Quiet (especially the -421) leg room, great visibility, the trim wheel is perfectly placed for manual operation, or monitoring it by leaning your leg against it, your hands fall on the throttles, the autopilot panel is accessable without reaching. The labels on the C/Bs and switches are well lit can be read at night with bifocals, and THERE ARE NO SWITCHES or GAUGES ON THE OVERHEAD!!!
They have a much more ergonomic cockpit than ANY Beech product.....
_________________ Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal MCW Be Nice, Kind, I don't care, be something, just don't be a jerk ;-)
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 10 Jun 2014, 11:22 |
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Joined: 12/19/08 Posts: 12160 Post Likes: +3541
Aircraft: C55
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Username Protected wrote: I love the Duke, but the C-400s have the best cockpit in GA... Period... Comfortable, Quiet (especially the -421) leg room, great visibility, the trim wheel is perfectly placed for manual operation, or monitoring it by leaning your leg against it, your hands fall on the throttles, the autopilot panel is accessable without reaching. The labels on the C/Bs and switches are well lit can be read at night with bifocals, and THERE ARE NO SWITCHES or GAUGES ON THE OVERHEAD!!!
They have a much more ergonomic cockpit than ANY Beech product..... I agree - the cabin is far superior, but for 4-5 people the Duke is 1/3 the cost and outperforms it in everything except takeoff roll. If you ned the big cabin go with the 421, but you are not filling the cabin and going any further than the Duke. For 500 NM or less the 421 will haul more people and bags. After 500 NM you need the fuel and will max out before adding more than a total of 6 people in the plane
_________________ The kid gets it all. Just plant us in the damn garden, next to the stupid lion.
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