does your friend need any more friends?

Eclipse is truly impressive. Someday.......

[OK thats me leaving San Juan in an Eclipse Jet about 2 or so years ago.
At the time I was working for a guy that had a BE 58, A 36 and had ordered and eventually received two Eclipse jets. I flew and managed the Eclipses till I got tired of broken promises, unpaid obligations, unmet promises, and unrealized dreams.
I have now moved to flying a BE 58 for a company that cares-that is vastly superior to an airplane that is pressurized.
While not claiming to be an expert by any stretch, I have a lot of Beechcraft time, even worked at a Beech dealer when there was such a thing. I also taught, for a while, a Beechcraft transition school for a well known aircraft sales business.
I also have the distinction of having driven a 917K Porsche, but I really am a pretty dull person.[/quote]

Pretty humble too. Welcome to Beechtalk.[/quote]

[/quote]
For those not "up to spped on cars" that is modest. The 917 will go faster on the ground than most HP singles (240MPH). That must have been a thrill. I had an opportunity to spend some time with Vic Elford, Porsche factory driver with the LeMans track record in the 917. He said it was a handful to drive.
1971 model had 1100 HP~!
Configuration 912.52 180º V12
Construction magnesium alloy block, aluminium alloy head
Displacement 5.374 liter / 327.9 cu in
Compression 6.5:1
Aspiration Twin Eberspacher Turbos
Power 1100 bhp / 821 KW @ 7800 rpm
Torque 1112 Nm / 820 ft lbs @ 6400 rpm
BHP/Liter 205 bhp / liter
Sorry for the car talk, but it really can fly, and Porsche bult aircraft engines, or at least tried to with the PFM.

I would say 'tried to' would be a good way to word that. Talk about a huge failure!

The 917 is impressive. I will never forget the sound it made as it blew past me on the back straight at Road Atlanta (I was in a 500hp 911 turbo). That was as intimate as I got with it. Never got to drive one ....

I slept at a Holiday Inn Express once...does that count?

Hi Ted,

Never thought my first post on Beechtalk would be about an Eclipse, but your thread has motivated me off the sidelines and into the game

Quick introduction, career pilot that also holds CFI ratings and happen to have about 500 hours in the Eclipse having operated and managed 3 of them.

Hard to tell for sure from your pictures but this appears to be a pre serial number 39 aircraft, which would make it a non ETT Avidyne Eclipse. This would mean it has non of the speed mods, small tip tanks and the first generation avionics suite. The airplane is a VOR/ DME aircraft, rudimentary autopilot, which means it is not capable of flying coupled precision approaches, no weather radar, and not approved for flight in known icing. Interestingly the AFM limitations section defines icing conditions as anytime the temp is +10 to -40 degees C and any form of visible moisture, which essentually from a legal view point means this airplane is really limited to VFR. Some aircraft have been retrofitted with an in panel Garmin unit that was IFR certifed, but it has no integration with the autopilot. Most non upgraded Eclipses fly with a Garmin 496 on the dash.

Although this airplane has geat flight characteristics, It might be prudent to be aware of a few of the pitfalls and limitations associated with obtaining an EA50 type rating

In order to ever operate one single pilot you will require an EA50S type rating. Although it is not a difficult airplane to fly, the training is quite challenging because you will be hand flying all of the precision approaches.

Once you do successfully obtain the type rating, the FAA still mandates mentor training before you can fly single pilot . If this is your first type rating and you have little or no jet experience this will in most cases add an additional twenty hours of required traning post check ride.

And of course pilot profficency checks are required every 12 months on turbo jet aircraft.

Keep in mind that if you do wish to make this an ATP type, the regs require you to at least hold a commecial pilot certificate with the required flight times.

Difference training will also be required if you wish to fly next generation aircraft that have the Avio NG avionics suite.

All training must be performed by Eclipse approved instructors, and would highly recommend Tom Norton as the best option for non sim based training.

If you are considering the purchase of an Eclipse suggest you talk with Jim Christie or myself first before making the jump. And since I have never driven the Porche 917 that would make me an even duller person then Mr. Christie

Jim, I bet we could down quite a few beers in the time we could spend swapping Eclipse stories

Now there is a man who knows the EA500!!

You are correct in everything you say (except for the part of the aircraft limited to VFR only- there is just no FIKI).

I have spent about 5 hours in the airplane so far. This one is RVSM and has an IFR cert Garmin 400 (with it's own CDI, not coupled). It will eventually need to be upgraded to the 'total eclipse,' possibly as soon as mid 2013 which will add the bigger tanks, FIKI, moving map, coupled approaches, radar, etc as you mentioned.

I have all requirements met for ATP, so I will get the written out of the way before the checkride. This will indeed be my first jet type so a mentor pilot will be required. I have a great mentor pilot already. Former Navy T-38 instructor with several hundred hours in the eclipse. We get along really well.

We liked Norton, but ultimately decided to go with the program out in Albuquerque. They both seem equally excellent.

Is this first gen eclipse a brand new gulfstream? No. But it is quite a bit more capable than my 55 baron with operating costs that are not much higher considering how much faster it is. You just have to understand it's limitations, live with them, and most importantly respect them.

The cost to upgrade this airplane is $1m. We decided for $1m, we can hand fly the approaches and stay out of the ice. The current owner of this airplane takes another pilot along if it is going to be a day of hard/low IFR. Probably not a bad idea for any part time single pilot jet guy.

I flew my C414 for 150 hours single pilot IFR with the autopilot inop, just VOR/DME and an old KLN90B GPS. It was not FIKI. I feel like that was pretty good warm up for the eclipse training

Ted with your experience you should have no problem completing the required training and passing the type ride.



This is probably one of the greatest misconceptions I hear from people that are new to the jet. While the fuel burns are addictingly low, this is the cheapest part of operating the jet. Keep in mind that unlike your Baron, the operator must maintain the Eclipse under the approved maintenance program that has been established by Eclipse. This airplane is very maintenance extensive and since this jet is Eclipse proprietary, you will be required to purchase almost all parts through Eclipse aerospace. The prices they charge will make HBC prices seem like peanuts. If I remember correctly one engine oil filter will set you back 1,500 USD

Remember not only do you have 60 day ELT checks, 90 day TLD FADEC checks, 6 months battery capacity tests, 12 month engine inspections, 24 month inspections, 36 month strut fluid replacement , 48 month inspections, but as a turbo jet all life limited components by regulation must be replaced. Some of these parts are rather expensive and while most are cycle limited, a few are calender limited. Example Phostrex or fire bottles are 10 year limited, and will cost you 21,000 USD to replace. Since your aircraft is a 2007, that leaves you 5 years. Also I believe ( but not 100 percent sure) the Oxygen masks are 5 year limited, and they run 6,800 USD a piece. Windshields are life limited at 1500 cycles, and will set you back another 85,000 USD to replace.
And this is only considering scheduled maintenace, you can to plan on unscheduled maintenance to run you anywhere from an average of 5,000 to 30,000 USD per year.

Last I heard, which is about 8 months ago, it was very difficult for a new owner to find an insurance company that will underwrite jets that have not completed the final factory upgrades to IFMS. But even at that insurance will run you around 15 to 20 thousand USD per year. Add in required recurrent training and the annual cost goes up another 4 to 8 thousand USD.

I don't want you to be under the impression that I am being critical of your decision, but as an experienced Eclipse operator, I am just trying to make sure you eyes are wide open to the realities of owning and operating this aircraft. The bottom line is there is no such thing as a cheap jet, and never will the ownership and operating expense ever approach that of a reciprocating twin engine aircraft.

Please don't hesitate to PM me if you wish to exchange contact info to further discuss.

Cheers,
Dave

Dave-

I sent you a PM. Thanks for all the great info. I really appreciate your offer! What part of the country are you in?

PS- I just want to fly the thing for a while. I am not going to marry it! I have what I think is a pretty good opportunity here, so I am not going to let it pass me by!

Yep. How does the 16k for 20 hours breakdown?

That's $800/hr including fuel and instructor. Could be about right. At least $150/hr less than the King Air would need to be.

To David, Ted, and anyone else who is interested in listening. The 917 was a very hard and challenging car to drive properly. To make it go fast and perform well one had to be on top at all times-no daydreaming time allowed.

The early Eclipses are very much the same. With an autopilot that is little more than a wing leveler, no de ice, no DME, no ADF, no APPROVED GPS, and all the other promises Eclipse made and never kept (they still have no auto throttle-simple, but it could be surprisingly helpful when single pilot). All these shortcomings make the little jet a double handful to fly, especially on the "hard days". Try TEB singe pilot in low IFR with no GPS and an AP that won't shoot an approach. (Check out the JAIKE THREE arrival into TEB and try to input that into a 496). Sure you can do it, but the workload is much higher, and that on an airplane that was touted as the easiest jet to fly ever. Frankly it was just the opposite.

Add to that the fact that FAA and many others scrutinize EVERY flight made by an Eclipse Jet and you have a ready made violation maker.

Add that to the fact that the (now bankrupt) manufacturer WROTE IN TO the type certificate certain training and maintenance provisions that are unlike any other in the industry, and you have an airplane that is very hard to operate in a simple and easy manner. There is simply NO support system for the airplanes (short of a greedy and desperate NEW Eclipse company). If you have a flat tire while away from base you are stranded for at least three days-just for a tire! The upgrade path that exists is carved in stone and VERY costly, but is necessary to make the airplane as usable as it was intended to be. The needed upgrades BTW were passed to the original owners at the time of purchase as IOUs-IOUs that were not only never paid, but the owners finally had to pay for them out of their own pockets.

Plus, there are the engine problems, and we still don't have auto throttle, Radar Altimeter, potty, and a whole host of other things. Give me an old Citation 1 with the Sierra mods-a vastly superior and very usable airplane. I (and many others) can actually give you all the training you need to get typed in a Citation.

As for the 917s, they are a self regulating kind of thing. They reward the people that can get the performance out of them, and are very very unkind to the people that can't.

Just to bring a little balance to this thread, I'll just add that I have a friend who has owned one since 2008, and he absolutely LOVES it. He does not complain about maintenance schedules and mandated training and lack of support. He flies it once or twice a week and he's been all over the country in it.

This is a guy who soloed in a V35 when he was 16 and owned a 2000 Baron for the 8 years he was waiting to get his Eclipse. So he's "one of us".

I've flown with him a few times and I too am a big fan of the Eclipse. He even let me hand fly it from the right seat for a while during descent. Handles great.

So, I don't know the details of owning and operating these planes, but I can tell you there are happy owners out there.

Can an Eclipse owner please give the following estimates?

First year training cost $16k?
Reoccurring
Insurance
Maintenance checks
Hourly costs for engines
Block fuel burn
What else?

I'd have to agree with that statement. And, the manufacturer is still in business and there are actually simulators available that allow one to get a type rating, in the Citation, for considerably less money than what is projected for the Eclipse type. So if one were just looking to get a small jet type for fun, then the Citation would be a lot cheaper to do that in. Also, there are a lot more Citations around so, if a person wanted to get flight time in the actual airplane, there would be many more opportunites to so. But, as mentioned by others, jets are not cheap animals to feed and maintain so one does have to go into jet ownership with eyes wide open.

When an airplane is released to the public like that how can the manufacturer expect to be taken seriously?