My exact and true numbers are published. When 2025 ends, I publish those numbers since this year was my "big" phase 1-5 inspection.

Have any P300 owner publish their exact numbers for the last few years. If you can find one willing to do so. You make statements you can't back up, no data, just empty emphatic assertions.

And, of course, acquisition cost *IS* an ongoing expense, it is just that most people delude themselves into not thinking about it. The cost of money on a P300E would pay for flying 2 or 3 Citation Vs and that's before they pay for fuel or maintenance on the P300E.

Mike C.

No no no, cost of money is not real in aviation. It always comes back someday.

Plus, you forgot about the tax savings resulting from not earning any money on all that capital that is tied up. When you focus on tax savings, it almost seems like buying the newer airplane makes you money.

My exact and true numbers are published. When 2025 ends, I publish those numbers since this year was my "big" phase 1-5 inspection.

Have any P300 owner publish their exact numbers for the last few years. If you can find one willing to do so. You make statements you can't back up, no data, just empty emphatic assertions.

And, of course, acquisition cost *IS* an ongoing expense, it is just that most people delude themselves into not thinking about it. The cost of money on a P300E would pay for flying 2 or 3 Citation Vs and that's before they pay for fuel or maintenance on the P300E.

Mike C.

That is certainly true if they take your advice.

I'm not doing anything that special. And I'm not the only one operating a legacy Citation inexpensively, they are many of us, and I'm not the most frugal out there for sure. Tarver has me beat by a mile, for example.


I publish my numbers. Hard data.

If someone here is misleading, well it isn't me.


Says the man who provides NO data.


Yes, LRC, even into a headwind, can extend range. The manual gives you figures to use for best range in various wind situations.


At MCT, I make it using 300 lbs more fuel and saving 15 minutes, which is still adequate reserves. I didn't need to go the LRC to do the flight.


It is faster, by about 30 minutes, on what is basically a max range flight. Are those 30 minutes worth the huge increase in cost? For some, maybe, for me, not so much.


The P300E 10 year inspection is vastly more costly and extensive. For someone who advises people on these kinds of issues, your lack of detail here is disturbing. Here is a webpage that might educate you some:

https://elliottaviation.com/phenom-120- ... nspection/

Estimate for P300, $250K to $300K. Not clear if that includes squawks or not. That's clearly beyond my phase 1-5 requirements. The mandatory landing gear overhaul is a major part of the P300 cost, my gear hasn't been out of the plane since it as made in 1991.

If operating a 560 in your "real world" is more expensive than a P300, then I am happy to be in my world and not yours. It is obviously clear we don't live in the same one.

Mike C.

Interestingly there are at least 3 CJ4 owners in my neighborhood who have Phenom 300’s on order.

I would love to be able to run one personally but the entry cost is too high right now. I had to laugh when I asked my DOM, who I greatly respect and trust, whether he would support a legacy Citation and his response: “if you can’t afford a Phenom you can’t afford an old Citation.”

The most reliable planes I’ve ever been around are Phenoms.

I am a pilot.

I own and operate a Citation V.

I publish my numbers.

You are 0 for 3 of the above.

My "restaurant" is open and thriving. Others are doing the same.

Mike C.

I can't afford a Phenom 300.

I can afford a Citation V.

If I could afford a Phenom 300, I'd still get a Citation V and be $millions ahead in investments from saving all that money on acquisition cost and operating cost for the Phenom. The incremental improvements of the Phenom are just not worth that much more money to me.

Mike C.

I can't afford a Phenom 300.

I can afford a Citation V.

If I could afford a Phenom 300, I'd still get a Citation V and be $millions ahead in investments from saving all that money on acquisition cost and operating cost for the Phenom. The incremental improvements of the Phenom are just not worth that much more money to me.

Mike C.

Mike… you still don’t get it.

You are so blinded by your own BS that you can’t see what is obvious to the rest of us.

The Citation V is slower than a Phenom 300.

The Citation V is smaller than a Phenom 300.

The Citation V has less range than a Phenom 300.

The Citation V has inferior avionics to a Phenom 300.

The Citation V has less full fuel payload than a Phenom 300.

The Citation V, though small, burns more fuel than the Phenom 300.

The Phenom 300 is so much more airplane than the Citation V in every way, including acquisition cost, that the only reason we are even having this debate is that you think they are comparable.

I am a pilot.

I own and operate a Citation V.

I publish my numbers.

You are 0 for 3 of the above.

My "restaurant" is open and thriving. Others are doing the same.

Mike C.

Man, talk about a tease!

I think it's a fair match...Vegas line would be even.

It pleases me I don't have your knowledge since having that sounds expensive and depressing. I live in my ignorance that provides me with great happiness and satisfaction at a modest cost.

There may come a day when some great financial calamity occurs with my Citation ownership. But that day isn't today, and I don't fear it should it come.

Indeed, if I had $10M tied up in a newish airplane, my anxiety would be FAR greater than what I feel today with my current choice. My downside risk is very limited, a Phenom could lose more market value in a year than my plane's total value.

The P300 is 10% more airplane for 10 times the cost. That works for some, not for me.

Mike C.

Ok, Mike... I guess this isn't about the ridiculous comparison of a Citation V and a Phenom 300

So is mine, Mike. In the last 60 days we have closed two M2Gen2's, a Mustang, and a B200. We have another B200, a CJ3+, a 350i currently in prebuy and another Mustang on it's way to prebuy next week.

The difference is you have a problem with my restaurant.

I only claim to be an example, one that comes with specifics and data.

I am not the outlier you claim. Many are doing a similar thing.

In Dec 2020 when I bought my Citation V, a P300 was typically about $8M and I paid under $1M all in with upgrades. The $7M difference would have grown $5.5M since then if put into an SP500 fund. I am $5.5M ahead by sacrificing 10% on my airplane choice. That is a very expensive 10% and completely dominates my operating cost.

So when someone asks how the P300 could be better, the obvious answer is it could be cheaper to own and operate. That was my answer.

Mike C.