21 Oct 2025, 19:47 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Piper M700 Pirep Posted: 06 Jun 2024, 12:50 |
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Joined: 01/07/21 Posts: 421 Post Likes: +411
Aircraft: M20J/R, Sr22, SR20
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Hey Charles, in your report you say normal cruise is 290, max 300. For normal day to day 800-1000 mile trips, is 300kt comfy, and a good setting? Any reason not to do those 10 extra knots.
As I understand, the TBM9 series is normal cruise is 300 kts.
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Post subject: Re: Piper M700 Pirep Posted: 28 Jul 2024, 09:31 |
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Joined: 08/16/15 Posts: 3654 Post Likes: +5388 Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
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Sorry didn't see the reply. Have to admit that I am no expert on the M700 in my whopping 1 hours TT. But the difference between 290 and 300 costs about 2% more fuel burn, and about 15 degrees on the ITT. I suspect many will fly the plane at max cruise. Will it make a difference in the hot section at 1800 hours and the OH at 3600 hours? Most will never take one of these planes to HSI much less OH. Flying 150 hours per year, which is about 40,000 nm, would take 24 years to get to OH. As much as I hope to, doubt I have 24 more years of ultra high performance aircraft flying. I would be 83 years old. On the other hand the difference between 290 and 300 knots for most trips, is missing a red-light on the way to the airport, or a passenger having to use the bathroom before loading.  So maybe save the 2-3% in fuel and baby the engine. The -52 is a beast of an engine, so it really doesn't care. Day dreaming about what it will take from me to put one of these in my hangar and looking at photos. I need to produce more  Some more pics: The deck angle in the climb is up to 15 degrees pitch up, which is wild. But for the pax, great views out of the window in the climb. Attachment: 1 (29).jpeg When selecting a new altitude, the plane climbs crazy fast. We're seeing well over 3000 fpm, here 3400 fpm. This plane has a higher power to weight ratio than a P51 Mustang. Had to wrap my mind around that, but did the math, and it does. Attachment: 1 (30).jpeg When you pull back the power, and look at the range rings. Green dotted is 45 minute reserve, solid green is fuel exhaustion. You can see what an incredible range the plane has. Bucket list trips are a non-issue. Really worried about flying international before I had the M600, because outside of the US, airports are far apart and when you get to needing real alternates, what you think is good range in a plane, suddenly starts looking anemic. You can't scroll the map out far enough to see where you can go. You will notice we don't have full fuel. But we just fooled the computer to thin it had top of climb fuel to see the range. Our actual range with hand tanks would be less than that. Attachment: 1 (32).jpeg You can see with the 3 of us onboard and light luggage, we have plenty of ability to load. We could take an additional combination of fuel baggage and pax of 867 lbs. Attachment: 1 (33).jpeg The systems pages look like something out of a modern jet. The plane knows everything that is going on. Even from home, you can log into the app, and see your fuel and oil levels and battery status of the plane in the hangar. Databases and engine logs are automatically downloaded and sent by cell data or wifi, whichever is available. Attachment: 1 (34).jpeg Attachment: 1 (35).jpeg The PA46 series have continued to improve cockpit room over the years. The M700 is the best yet. They shrunk the center console giving more ingress egress legroom, and not shown shrunk the oxygen cabinet so that the copilot seat can slide as far back as the pilot seat. I am 6'1 and change (used to be 6'2) and 200 lbs. This cockpit is one of the most comfortable of all the planes up to light business jets that I have flown. I have to slide my seat all the way back to 1 click forward, lower the seat height all the way down, and then recline it a little to maximize my comfort. But up to almost 7 hours in the plane, I have not wanted to jump out  The evolution of PA46 seats included extending the seat backs over the wing spar giving about 3 extra inches leg room, switching the fat seats for high tech high density foam seats that give an additional 1-2 inches head and legroom, widening the cockpit by changing the side panels, integrating the arm rests into foldable stowage to get them out of the way, cutouts above the head for more headroom, and some other little things. This is a very different experience from a 1984 Malibu. Still takes a little technique to get over the wing spar into place, but you learn a technique that works for you and it becomes a non-issue after a few reps. Back to making money  Attachment: 1 (36).jpeg
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_________________ Chuck Ivester Piper M600 Ogden UT
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Post subject: Re: Piper M700 Pirep Posted: 28 Jul 2024, 23:23 |
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Joined: 01/07/21 Posts: 421 Post Likes: +411
Aircraft: M20J/R, Sr22, SR20
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Hey Charles, any chance you were flying over Zion the other morning about 6AM?
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Post subject: Re: Piper M700 Pirep Posted: 29 Jul 2024, 14:17 |
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Joined: 12/02/15 Posts: 415 Post Likes: +200 Location: KBLM KAPF
Aircraft: Aerostar600A
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Username Protected wrote: Nice writeup!
Do you know what the current life limit of the wing is? Are they factory installing the same mod that is applied to the M600? Are the wings of concern ? 
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Post subject: Re: Piper M700 Pirep Posted: 29 Jul 2024, 15:06 |
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Joined: 08/16/15 Posts: 3654 Post Likes: +5388 Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
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I don’t think the wings are of any concern. The later M600s and the new M700 don’t have whatever concern Piper is working on with the legacy birds. Piper is still promising at least 10,000 hrs, and per private communication are getting close on fatigue testing. The legacy birds will get some mod. I have seen a schematic of the proposed fix, which seems relatively minor, but will see when they release it. I think worst case scenario, Piper is going to be building and giving away lot of new extra wings for the legacy aircraft  But like I said, looks like they have a fix, which seems pretty minor. They are not going to up the wing life limit until some of the birds start getting close, so that the next update will be at least 10,000 hours. We might be the first one, if we keep flying 350-400 hrs/year
_________________ Chuck Ivester Piper M600 Ogden UT
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Post subject: Re: Piper M700 Pirep Posted: 13 Aug 2024, 17:58 |
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Joined: 04/04/11 Posts: 25 Post Likes: +7
Aircraft: A36
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Username Protected wrote: Well, I had the opportunity to fly a new Piper M700 Fury. Much of what I will talk about is in reference to its little sister the M600. The latest and last serial number of the M600 is a very mature airframe, and this was the base platform for the M700. I would say that almost everything good from the M600 was brought forward, and some of it was upgraded in a nice way. My partner and I have over 2250 hours in multiple versions of the M600. Elise from Western, Boise, was nice enough to bring over her beautiful demo plane. Attachment: 1 (1).jpeg One of the things that stands out on the M700 is the maturity of the fit and finish. Piper gets better every year in their paint and interiors. Almost every year of the PA46 since I have been flying them, they will incorporate some subtle redesign and process improvement. Rarely is next year’s PA46 the same as the last. The M700 is no different, numerous little changes in the cabin from map lights that have been modernized, to carpet inserts designed to be more secure and durable. Attachment: 1 (2).jpeg Where the M700 really shines is performance. Piper’s second fastest production plane only bested by the Piper Cheyenne. You will see that they advertise the M700 significantly faster. Sure, it has a bigger engine, so that is easy. But with the same fuel capacity it has more range than the M600. Faster and longer range? Now that is impossible, right? Well not really. The M700 is faster, and it has a longer range, BUT not at the same time. The PT6-52A is a more powerful engine, has higher temp limits, and unlike the PT6-42A in the M600, there is no disclaimer of possibly shortening engine life by running max cruise. The max temp is 840 vs 800. So, the 301 KTAS comes with max cruise settings, and the more efficient larger airbox, redesigned intakes and giant aerodynamically maximized stacks, give the plane more power and more efficiency. In fact, when running power settings and fuel flows in the M600 in the M700, the M700 is actually faster on the same fuel flow. That is some nice engineering. The longer range is also helped by the M700’s ability to initially climb at over 3000 fpm, and 2000 fpm all the way to cruise altitude, in the thin cold efficient air. This plane advertises over 1800 nm at economy settings. So, if you need a really long range, this plane will outfly most people’s butts. Attachment: 1.jpeg This M700 beats its book numbers a little. We hit 300 KTAS at FL260 and ISA+8. Fuel flow was a miserly 335-340 pph. When we slowed to M600 fuel flows and TQ of 1195, we were seeing 266 KTAS burning 270 pph at ISA+8. So basically 1 nm per lb. of fuel. When we fooled the range rings to thinking we took off with full fuel, we could hit almost all the US, Canada, southern Alaska, and the Bahamas. Plenty of range for those bucket list trips. Max Cruise Attachment: 1 (3).jpeg At normal Cruise seeing 290 KTAS at 320 PPH, with incredible range Attachment: 1 (4).jpeg Like the M600, the high Vmo makes the descent fast and fun. Without any unusual inputs, in the descent we rolled it up to Mach 0.54 giving us a TAS of 331 knots and 374 knots over the ground, at 6 miles a minute, you can cover some serious ground. If you forget to stay ahead of the plane, the active overspeed and under speed protection will use the enhanced ESP and Auto throttle to keep you under Vmo/Mmo and above stall speed. The Autoland, automatic autopilot engagement for an out-of-control pilot, TAWS and TCAS are carried forward as one of the most advanced GA aircraft available at any price. What is hot: The aft CG issues of the M600 were improved with a slightly heavier engine, a heavier sturdier front nose gear that is also available for all M600 SN’s. A larger capacity battery which is also heavy, and a heavier starter generator, all of which address the aft CG of the M600. It still retains the 4 forward compartments where you can install ballast (weights) if needed to pull the CG forwards. The copilot seat now travels as far as the pilot seat, the O2 cabinet has been reshaped and resized. A bonus for those in the copilot seat. The systems pages are now what you would expect from a business jet, with functional diagrams, green systems are go. Performance data is calculated with the onboard weight and balance, which for a plane that can get off the ground in a little over 1000 feet. But you can pretend you are in one of the latest modern biz jets. The G3000 is loaded with almost anytime available on a G3000 platform, GWX8000 is standard, some new features like built in glide range rings that adjust with winds and altitude, performance profiles updated with winds and temps aloft as you travel, new system software with the GDL60 that allow you to check on your airplane such as fuel levels, database status, etc., anytime right from your smart phone as well as database uploads and engine parameter downloads that can use nearby WIFI or cellular data. Many little upgrades, like the nuisance alarms were addressed, such as not yelling check gear if you bring power back to idle. The oxygen level is no longer a gauge but is now on the systems page. You can select absolute or relative terrain or even merge them together like the old G1000 did. The ingress and egress is made easier by the new roomier copilot seat, and the pedestal which was shrunk to make it easier to get a leg between the pedestal and the seats. The auto throttle on the M600 is smooth, and intuitive, but the power lever control and activation on the M700 seems even smoother. The power lever movement feels more solid, but this may be true of the latest model M600’s as well. Better steering limit markings on the front gear, and a removable plastic cover that will break alerting you to an over-steer by the ground crew. Looks like that may be possible to retro to the M600 if desired. The M700 sports a newly designed rudder that really decreases the left turning tendency on takeoff and climb. Take off only requires light right rudder input, as opposed to almost feeling like you are standing on the rudder with a full power launch from a standstill in the M600. That is helpful in a plane that I am told has a higher power to weight ratio than a P51 Mustang. Well, I had to go Google, and do the math on that one, and it appears that the M700, in fact, has more power to weight than most P51 Mustangs. The acceleration on take-off, holding brakes until the auto throttle kicks in, is impressive. So impressive that my mind being in M600 mode, was behind the aircraft and I was already 6-8 knots above Vr before my brain caught up. Take off roll is just a little over 1000 feet in some conditions. The zero-fuel weight was increased on the M700, so you can trade more fuel for weight in the cabin. Lastly a lot of recurring SB’s, the need for a wing modification, some fatigue cracks noted on high use M600’s (which we are high utilizers  Has been addressed on the M700. So, a little cleaner maintenance going forward. Of course, the M700 may have its own stresses uncovered over time. The M700 still has Piper ultimate covering most maintenance and annuals for 5 years. So, everything can’t be perfect. What is possibly better on the M600. Well, the M700 loses the site glass for checking the turbine oil. That is replaced with a sensor that will CAS if the oil is getting on the low side of normal. Otherwise back to dipstick checking. The plane is heavier. There is more metal, not sure where it all is, but about 150 lbs more than the equivalent early M600’s, so the full fuel useful load is just a tad over 500 lbs, but then full fuel can take you depending on power settings 1200/1400/1800 nm. So rare to need full fuel and you can trade fuel for passengers. Well at least for now, I am looking for one in my Christmas stocking. I was told 2024 is sold out to the dealers, but motivated buyers can likely get one. The M700 closes some of the performance gap in the TBM960 and Epic. But comes in at a lower acquisition and operating cost. The operating costs are still in line with its little cousin the Piper Meridian, but with quite a bit more performance and capability. Piper has a winner here. A nice combination of cost, technology, comfort, and capability. Choosing any other aircraft is going to take a compromise in one of those factors. So, sits nicely in its own niche.
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Post subject: Re: Piper M700 Pirep Posted: 31 Oct 2024, 02:49 |
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Joined: 01/07/18 Posts: 86 Post Likes: +42
Aircraft: 1979 58P/1988 F33A
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Sorry Charles, had to one up you on speed today…
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Post subject: Re: Piper M700 Pirep Posted: 04 Nov 2024, 19:47 |
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Joined: 07/15/17 Posts: 86 Post Likes: +29
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I sat in a 700 at NBAA. I'm 6'2, more with shoes on, over 200lbs. In terms of room in modern STEP's it's Epic>TBM>Pilatus/Fury
Pilatus more head room and elbow, Fury more leg. I'd rather have the Fury.
I didn't sit in it for more than 10 mins, can't comment on 5th hour of comfort.
Getting in/out MUCH easier than even the M600. The smaller pedestal is noticeable.
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Post subject: Re: Piper M700 Pirep Posted: 05 Nov 2024, 09:37 |
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Joined: 01/28/13 Posts: 6292 Post Likes: +4369 Location: Indiana
Aircraft: C195, D17S, M20TN
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Joel had to do some research when you said “Fury” in the list above. My mind went to the FJ-4 Fury  and I was going to tip my hat. The M700 looks really nice.
_________________ Chuck KEVV
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Post subject: Re: Piper M700 Pirep Posted: 05 Nov 2024, 11:51 |
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Joined: 07/10/10 Posts: 1087 Post Likes: +811 Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: PC-12
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Username Protected wrote: Getting in/out MUCH easier than even the M600. How is this possible?
_________________ ----Still emotionally attached to my Baron----
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Post subject: Re: Piper M700 Pirep Posted: 05 Nov 2024, 14:21 |
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Joined: 07/15/17 Posts: 86 Post Likes: +29
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Marketing materials said they made the seats (cushioning?) smaller. IDK.
The pedestal IS smaller/stubbier than the 600. I don't remember if the wing spar is lower, I want to say it was but it's been a while since I sat in a 600. That made it easier for me to drag my oaf-feet around it. I am not a ballerina.
Makes me respect Daher for really figuring out their customer (old rich guy) and why they invested the engineering in a pilot door so long ago.
@Chuck it IS really nice. Piper did a good job with it, the 5 yr included maintenance puts it on par with TBM. It's a million ish less and 40 kts slower burning 10 gph less. I'd bet out of warranty costs are lower than the French, but that's a guess more than anything and probably not by 50%, but 30% max.
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Post subject: Re: Piper M700 Pirep Posted: 12 Jun 2025, 10:10 |
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Joined: 08/16/15 Posts: 3654 Post Likes: +5388 Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
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Just a follow up on my M700 experience. Got my M600 out of annual yesterday. I had arranged for them to fly the M600 back to my home drome, but they offered to pick me up in a brand new M700, and get the plane myself. That seemed like more fun. Had forgotten what a beast this plane was. Remembering from my last time, I was ready for the quick rotation on auto throttles. The ground roll was short. I didn't measure it, but once the AT kicks in, it is gauges green, airspeed, alive, cross check, stay on center line and rotate. Happens about that fast, and you are gear up, flaps, up, and looking to not bust the initial altitude. Has the shortest ground roll of any of the higher performance cross country turboprops. Like all the M700's at least the ones that the demo pilot Elise has flown, they all beat book performance, just like the M600. We were over 300 knots at FL240 and FL260, which is not the optimum performance altitudes, but still making the advertising numbers. The fit and finish has continued to improve. My M600 is starting to look a little 'legacy" in comparison. but the handling is amazing. They changed the rudder from the M600, and it is so light on the rudder inputs even with the 783 ESHP pulling the 5000 lb airframe on take off. At our take off weight, we had more power to weight than a standard P51 Mustang. The lowest climb rate I saw going up to 25,000 feet was 2100 fpm, and I was not even climbing at Vy was mostly Vy+20 knots. The Vy climb attitude is frankly a little uncomfortably nose up, especially for passengers. And all you see is blue sky. Coming into Boise, we broke off IFR and went over to a little valley to demonstrate some of the envelope protection. It is really impressive. first did the AP where I leveled off with insufficient power to fly, a common cause of loss of control in TP's, and any aircraft really. Getting too slow. Unlike common ESP, it can drop the nose to preserve airspeed, but in the case of the M700, you don't even lose altitude, because the AT comes on and very gently (depending on how fast things are deteriorating) adds power to maintain a healthy margin over stall. I think there are quite a few planes that do this on AP. But not sure how many do what we did next. I pretended I was an inattentive pilot, hand-flying, and did the stupid pilot trick of climbing with insufficient power, which resulted in a fast rollback of speed, heading quickly towards stall. Autopilot off. Autothrottle off. The computer sees what is about to happen, and looking at the trend vector sees what is about to happen and announced autothrotte, and before I can really even intervene, has added just the right amount of thrust to preserve the airspeed. These are bad video clips. Elise is a great post production pilot, competitive aerobatic pilot, Piper demo pilot and all around fantastic person, but going to have to work on her video skills  So the 3 pictures are described below Here I am hand flying, all automation off, pitched 12.5 degrees nose up, almost at flight idle, the airspeed is rolling back pretty fast and the computer is following the trend vector. The computer sees this, announces airspeed, I do nothing, and quickly the AT comes on out of the background an adds just enough power to keep the airspeed up at the 10-12 degrees nose up. Not excess power, and with the improved rudder I mentioned above, I don't notice any left turning tendency, but may have subconsciously corrected. Then once the plane is flying again, the AT turns off, leaving the power set in a safe zone for me. But pretty sure watching me a little closer now.  Pitched up 12.5 degrees, just above flight idle, airspeed bleeding off quickly Attachment: IMG_0724.jpeg Minimum speed announced, then auto-throttle announced Attachment: IMG_0723.jpeg AT kicks in, and once airspeed is stabilized, goes back to sleep leaving me a climbing plane at 10 degrees nose up 650 fpm, about 30% available torque. If it had to, to preserve airspeed, it would also kick in the stability package to drop the nose. Attachment: IMG_0725.jpeg Quite a bird. Here she is, next to my trusty steed. The trip back home was nice, not a single squawk out of annual. But 30+ knots slower. Attachment: IMG_0684 (1).jpeg
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_________________ Chuck Ivester Piper M600 Ogden UT
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