No comparison.

The "full size" jets are bigger, faster (by 100 KTAS), fly higher, have better prezzurization, and have 2 engines. The whole concept of the SF50 is to be owner flown. To someone who is not a pilot the SF50 will feel like a toy, and, relatively speaking, perform like one.

Perhaps a bit more information will help this discussion along (or end it)...

My brother has been pitched by various people to purchase a Vision Jet. He currently leases typical mid-size corporate jets when required and was wondering if the Vision Jet would be appropriate for his business as he is getting involved in a venture in Florida which will require frequent travel back and forth.

Most of what has been discussed I relayed to him in our initial conversation on a qualitative level.

Being a retired aeronautical engineer (and having spent 18 years designing business jet & turboprop engines), I wanted to give him a quantitative assessment as well as confirming to myself how close I was to my initial thoughts. For example, I know very well that a single engine turbofan can't compete speed-wise with a full blown twin biz jet, and my brother had a transit time concern, so I ballparked how much slower I thought the SF50 would be (- and I was pretty close)

Not having access to a SF50 POH/AFM, I reached out on BT hoping someone could provide me with detailed information (thanks for the suggestions and PMs - you educated me about this particular aircraft).

And I'll ignore the comments about depreciation, etc...My brother, God Bless Him, has had an extremely successful Wall Street career. I'm sure he had the financials well under control in a few minutes of being pitched.

That being said, getting the perspective of other BTer's is always enlightening, and once again, thank you!

Art

It’s not about “the financials”. It’s about what he’s getting for the money. It sounds like he values his time, not the experience of flying. Most of us would gladly fly lower and slower to be able to fly the plane ourselves. A non pilot using a plane for business just wants to get there as quickly and safely as possible. Cost may be a consideration, but not a primary one. That’s not a Vision jet.

It’s not about “the financials”. It’s about what he’s getting for the money. It sounds like he values his time, not the experience of flying. Most of us would gladly fly lower and slower to be able to fly the plane ourselves. A non pilot using a plane for business just wants to get there as quickly and safely as possible. Cost may be a consideration, but not a primary one. That’s not a Vision jet.

Exactly. Honda, p100, etc need to be in the mix and may not be if he's not being pitched by them.

-J

I don't see the advantage to a Vision Jet unless you're a low time pilot and are more insurable or comfortable in a single engine aircraft. If your brother is going to be riding in the back, he'd be much better off in something like a M2 or Phenom 100. More capex, but much better cabin and more likely to make it non stop to Florida.

I agree - for $3 mm plus/minus, he can get a used M2 or HondaJet. The P100, Vision or Mustang are much more range-limited. He will want to be able to fly that trip nonstop both ways every time. I don't know much about the older Citations but personally, I think the HondaJet cabin is really outstanding (including the lav) for folks riding in the back. Not too shabby for those up front too.

I love the Vision but it's not really a longer-haul corporate aircraft. No lav really rules it out and despite the claim to a 1220-mile range (for the G2 version), that's at economy cruise and NOBODY flies their Vision at economy cruise. You might as well fly my airplane (Piper M600) if you want long range, no lav and 260 knots! Don't get me wrong, I love the Vision and my own airplane but for a Wall Street guy, he's gonna want a lav, wifi, hot coffee in the cabin and all the goodies back there ...

Just my two cents!

Art, if you or your brother have access to Foreflight, you can get a very accurate performance and fuel burn as long as you have the Performance Plus subscription.

I plugged in the G1 SF50 for that mission and here's what I got (see images below):

Outbound leg: HPN - PBI using most direct routing per FF: 17g short on fuel

Return leg: PBI - HPN using most direct routing per FF: 15g short on fuel

While I LOVE the cabin and many other features of the Vision, the range isn't all that great. If the mission is 800nm or less and you assign a high value to its cabin space and don't mind the high acquisition cost and high insurance rates then it's a great choice. If I had a mission that required 900-1,000 legs then the SF50 would not be on the shortlist to consider.

For example, the Mustang does this mission quite well with plenty of fuel and in roughly 3 hrs.

According to my all-in cost comparison (using a $1.3M Mustang and $1.8M SF50) you can own and operate a Mustang for roughly 20% less than an SF50. I'm a Cirrus fan for sure but would likely buy a Mustang over an SF50.

Ok I will play,,,

Utilizing normal routing tonight KHPN to KPBI the Piaggio Avant II shows 2:49 utilizing 1800 lbs of fuel total (250 gallons). Assuming take off with 2800 (full fuel) this leaves 1000 lb or 1 +35 reserve upon arrival.

Max Takeoff weight 12,200 lbs With an empty weight of 7850 lbs that leaves 1500 lbs for payload - 7 seats full of 200 lb men and 100 lbs of baggage (!) or any combination of the two.

Full stand up headroom, hard door potty and 380 knot cruise. Quieter than any jet. Half the cost of a SF50 and single pilot with no type rating requirement.

And, oh yeah, they are waaaaaay prettier..

Until you need parts or service, isn’t that a major challenge?

Easy on the “Mustang is range limited” claim. It won’t take you as far as the m600, but I make my 1000nm trip non stop both ways. Have never stopped once in going on 2 years. The thing that bothers me about the vision jet is the limited altitude. Picking through weather at 28k is one thing I do not miss with my Meridian.

Mark I am really impressed with that Piaggio. Performance is incredible.

If your brother isn’t a pilot, money is not an issue, I suggest he goes for a flight in the SF50 so he can compare to the mid-size jets he is used to.

That’s going to answer his acquisition questions I bet.

Andrew

There's an SF50 in the hangar next door to me. I was chatting with the pilot who flies it for the owner. He basically said he wouldn't recommend buying one mainly because of all the downtime. He just picked it up from the "annual" and it was at the service center for a month. A month for a regularly scheduled inspection on a brand new aircraft. I asked why and he said there are all kinds of SBs and other maintenance that Cirrus is requiring. I'm sure it's all under warranty but that's a lot of downtime for a new airplane. I will say that it's a beautiful airplane (on the inside) with lots of room and HUGE windows. I would guess that it's very nice to be a passenger in.

The only selling point to me of the SF50, given its shortcomings, is the view. I have never sat in a cockpit with a better view, with the possible exception of the DA-40, but I’d say even that airplane can’t quite match it. Looking at the numbers I could not reconcile the length of the order book, then I sat in it, and it became clear (...).

I’d attribute most of the downtime to teething issues, I would think they’ve sorted out most of those issues on the later serial numbers. Then again I don’t think it would compare to an Embraer or Textron product in terms of dispatch rate.

If your brother is leasing jets, what problem is he trying to solve with the SF50? It’s slower, smaller, and probably not much cheaper. If he wants to own an airplane, there are better options as has been mentioned.

I felt the HondaJet interior was not good. I am 6’ tall and my head touches the sidewall if I sit up straight. Everything felt Honda, not Acura. This was not an Elite. Phenom 100 was good and has good ramp presence. M2 has poor ramp presence but was my favorite. Sat in all 4 back to back at an open house. Phenom 300 is a different beast altogether.

If it were my brother, I’d recommend he sit in an SF50 and then an M2, Phenom if he wants the stairs. I doubt he’ll end up with an SF50.