14 Nov 2025, 20:48 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF? Posted: 21 Sep 2019, 10:15 |
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Joined: 05/03/12 Posts: 2306 Post Likes: +720 Location: Wichita, KS
Aircraft: Mooney 201
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Username Protected wrote: I’m seriously considering a P210, it’s the best fit for my mission, but 3 underwriters are now mandating annual training. Along with that, insurance is about 2% of hull value.
What is going on in this industry? It isn’t a citation or 737 Max after all...
Background: commercial, instrument, ASEL, AMEL, 1500 hours, 1300 jet (single pilot), 100 turboprop. What insurance hoops did you have to jump through to get into a tprop and jet with a basically wet ppl?
I'll put a dollar on military flight training with a later conversion to civilian ratings. Perhaps PPL prior to military.
Everything is negotiable with the insurance broker. It sounds like they didn't say you must attend a named school or training program, just an approved one. So if that is the case, I'd see what's on the market that is convenient to you. If there are none, then it might be that you import a trainer for a day or two and do the work in your plane. Write up your own curriculum and formalize it, and see if that will get approved. Since you've already read all of the accident reports, you're further ahead of the average owner. Tailor the curriculum to address what you learned, and reference it appropriately. I bet you'll be successful.
Last edited on 21 Sep 2019, 10:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF? Posted: 21 Sep 2019, 10:30 |
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Joined: 06/09/09 Posts: 4438 Post Likes: +3305
Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
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Username Protected wrote: None, USAF type getting back into GA and learning a whole lot! These forums are invaluable. Well that makes sense, I had a hard time seeing that quick a move up without having a ton of insurance experience already. Basically, find your P210 trainer of choice and present their credentials to the broker for approval. Present what you want to do and with whom, or get the CFII to write something up in terms of a training “program”.
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF? Posted: 21 Sep 2019, 10:34 |
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Joined: 11/30/10 Posts: 4404 Post Likes: +3977
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Username Protected wrote: There was even a thread on BT where a lot of pilots were adamant that there was no need to fly a pattern at anything above 1.3 x Vso.
A link to that thread, please? This, I've got to read.
I'll try to find it. (not sure how to post a link but here it is: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=151634&hilit=Vref&view=unread#unread)
The gist of the thread was "what approach or departure speed to fly in a twin?" I was taught to use blue-line until established inbound or outbound below maneuvering altitude. Others though that as long as you stay above 1.3 Vso you were safe. This habit does not account for banking and maneuvering.
The Flight-Chops video refers to Commercial Operations Specs that require (not recommend) a Minimum Maneuvering Speed (MMS) well above stall speeds. It amounts to the same thing...prevention instead of skill.
_________________ An Engineer's job is to say No. Until the check clears, then make a mountain from a molehill.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF? Posted: 21 Sep 2019, 14:19 |
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Joined: 05/31/13 Posts: 1355 Post Likes: +723 Company: Docking Drawer Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
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What's the big deal with annual training? It's my favorite time of the year. I get to fly and talk airplanes for 2 days with other like minded pilots, plus it makes me safer. What's not to like besides the cost?
_________________ ATP, CFI-I, MEI http://www.dockingdrawer.com
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF? Posted: 21 Sep 2019, 17:36 |
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Joined: 02/11/09 Posts: 1387 Post Likes: +496 Company: UNLV Location: Tucson, AZ (57AZ)
Aircraft: 1960 Bonanza M35
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Username Protected wrote: Anyone have a good reference to an Insurance approved P210 school or CFI? I’ve heard Chuck Mcgill is the best but he’s in San Diego. I’m in Rhode Island but Phoenix works too. Potentially I may be able to help, or I may not. I'm in Tucson and have some P210 time and am currently on a P210 policy. If the underwriter will approve me, I'm happy to see if my schedule works with yours.
_________________ Ken Reed 57AZ
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Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF? Posted: 22 Sep 2019, 00:28 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 14559 Post Likes: +12357 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Unfortunately large collections of letters in a pilots signature doesn’t track well to better loss ratios so everyone gets learnin assigned.
Tj Hmmm...disappointing.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF? Posted: 22 Sep 2019, 08:26 |
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Joined: 06/04/18 Posts: 116 Post Likes: +88 Company: Commander, 79th FS Location: Sumter, SC
Aircraft: F-16, P210 TN550
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Username Protected wrote: Send the broker a reasonable outline of what you would like to do and they will probably get a green light on it. Find a smart 210 pilot, might not have to even be a CFI for you. Include an IPC or something along those lines.
Usually a well presented training program of your own design will be acceptable by at least one or more of them.
Safe to assume anything “P” will need annual training of some sort. A few are ok with 24 month training. Just how they choose to run their businesses. Unfortunately large collections of letters in a pilots signature doesn’t track well to better loss ratios so everyone gets learnin assigned.
Tj Thanks Tj, I’ll look into something like this!
_________________ CSEL, CMEL, CFII USAF F-16 Evaluator/WIC Instructor
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Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF? Posted: 23 Sep 2019, 09:17 |
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Joined: 03/23/08 Posts: 7357 Post Likes: +4090 Company: AssuredPartners Aerospace Phx. Location: KDVT, 46U
Aircraft: IAR823, LrJet, 240Z
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Username Protected wrote: Unfortunately large collections of letters in a pilots signature doesn’t track well to better loss ratios so everyone gets learnin assigned.
Tj Hmmm...disappointing. Which part is disappointing? The assignment of learning or the nature of loss data?
_________________ Tom Johnson-Az/Wy AssuredPartners Aerospace Insurance Tj.Johnson@AssuredPartners.com C: 602-628-2701
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Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF? Posted: 23 Sep 2019, 09:46 |
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Joined: 04/29/13 Posts: 774 Post Likes: +548
Aircraft: C177RG, ATOS-VR
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Username Protected wrote: in the fine print, they should have included a requirement for High Altitude endorsement ??? High altitude endorsement is only required in a twin with a certified ceiling of 25,000' or higher. The P210 is only certified to 23,000' and obviously a single. It would not be possible to do a high altitude endorsement in a P210. Vince
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Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF? Posted: 23 Sep 2019, 10:24 |
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Joined: 11/08/09 Posts: 920 Post Likes: +550 Company: AeroPacific Consulting LLC Location: Carson City, NV (KCXP)
Aircraft: 1979 Baron 58P
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Username Protected wrote: in the fine print, they should have included a requirement for High Altitude endorsement ??? High altitude endorsement is only required in a twin with a certified ceiling of 25,000' or higher. The P210 is only certified to 23,000' and obviously a single. It would not be possible to do a high altitude endorsement in a P210. Vince
Ref 14 CFR 61.31(g): High altitude training required for any pressurized aircraft (single or twin) if max certified ceiling is ABOVE FL250 (i.e. not required if max service ceiling is FL250).
Doug
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