Maybe instead of paying in all of that money on the program, just buy a couple of low time motors, pickle them, store and wait.

Robert

Just curious,
If you fly that Jet private, are HSI, TBO and those inspection programs all mandatory?

You have to select an inspection program per 91.409(e)/(f).

HSI is an inspection. Part cycle and time limits have to be honored as well.

OH is NOT an inspection. You are not required to do that part 91 (private flying). Often, part 135 (charter) have overhaul requirements as part of their operating specs, however.

Mike C.

Anyone operating past TBO... especially in a jet needs to consider the potential liability. What if there were a crash because of an engine failure and the owner of the aircraft faced civil liability from the injured or deceased passengers. If you clear the FAA, and the insurance company doesn't use it as an excuse to not pay... you still have an attorney in a court room saying "Your Honor, these engines were designed to be overhauled at a certain interval and the owner and operator of this aircraft knowingly exceeded that to save money."

Ouch. Not going to go over very well in a civil suit were the jury could care less about the nuances of 91 or 135...

You face this liability with engines under TBO.


There is no documented case of a claim being denied solely on the basis of an over TBO engine. If the plane was legally airworthy, they have no leg to stand on. The "over TBO negates insurance" argument has been debunked many times before.


There is a never ending list of things the plaintiff lawyer can say, so you can't eliminate all of them. For example, every "mandatory" SB that you do not comply with is exactly the same "risk" of jury impression that being over TBO is.

The retort is simple: the plane was inspected and found airworthy to fly by my mechanic, the engine vitals were good and being monitored, etc.

Spending tons of money won't change what a jury decides. In may, in fact, show the jury you have money for the settlement.

In the end, the best treatment for this situation is to not crash if an engine fails. The best way to do that is to have a second engine and know how to use it.

Mike C.

I think the guy who flies over TBO is not the guy who considers what happens when he kills people after not maintaining his/her plane. Not so much with turbine engines, but it never ceases to amaze me what lengths some will go to justify not doing maintenance. Propellers, for example. Then they act surprised when a prop seal fails and leaves them stranded. I've seen corrosion in 300 hour 5 year old prop hubs that scared me enough to consider 5 or 6 years a reasonable calendar limit.

With jets, you can't give one away with engines over TBO and even the More program on Pratts is a tough sell and takes the plane to a lower level of buyer. That's just the way it is. I'm not bashing the program, but you can pay now or pay later. Or maybe running them out to salvage is the way the old planes are headed?

Re: MSP, Honeywell does it right and though it's not cheap, and not popular with 331 operators due to the long TBO's and the generally bulletproof and low cost nature of the engine, I can see some benefit for a low utilization operator. One fuel control failure is equal to a year's premium, for example. GMP/PI looks like a heck of deal for the right circumstance. It's a business, but I have not seen any evidence of a conspiracy to lock in a contract and then screw over 331 operators nor 731 operators for that matter.

.. and then we have the engine makers who will happily extend TBO (*and* HSI) intervals when the cost is on them.

Boy, they must be really stupid and cheap SOBs those guys.

Williams will increase TBO on FJ44s from 4000 to 5000 if on their program. Honeywell will increase TPE331 from 5000 to 7000 on their program.

So what does that tell you about how long the engines really last?


I am ahead by 16 fuel controllers so far.


Except for the price going up 2-3x inflation every year. The contracts have NO clauses limiting price increases. You are completely at their mercy for whatever they want to charge.

I saw a price recently of $125/hour for a TPE331-10. That's $625,000 over a normal 5000 hour overhaul period. For one engine. That's ridiculous.

Mike C.

Not everyone is as blessed as you. And you ignore the insurance value of MSP and other considerations. A typical gold plated MSP 331 overhaul could easily run upwards of $400k. Factor in a 150/hr a year payback plan and it's clearly not a money printing business model though we still joke MSP means "money sent to Pheonix." Like I said, the program is not popular for the 331 as it clearly doesn't make sense for everyone. I'm looking for a way to tie 20-50 year old airplane costs to the CPI - that would be a humdinger of a product Insinuating that signing on to 331 MSP magically makes the engine run to 7,000 hours for the benefit of Honeywell is not correct.

No engine shop I've asked has ever stated a price that high for a typical overhaul. Which shop costs this much?

Even if it was that high, I'm still ahead of the program cost.


That's not me, that's Propulsion International on their program. What they say:

On GMP, Part 91 operators can extend the Hot Section from 2500 to 3500 hours and the Overhaul from 5000 to 7000 hours, adding significant value to the engines and aircraft, as well as lowering the hourly rate.

This is accomplished by using PI’s interval extension letter from Honeywell, the engine manufacturer, working with your local FAA FSDO to receive the approval.

Basically, put the engine on the program, it lasts longer when someone else has to pay. Now how does the engine know to last longer if you are on the program? Some magic there!

I've asked before how my engines can be on the 3500/7000 interval without paying for the program and no one will give me a straight answer. Can you?

Mike C.

No engine shop I've asked has ever stated a price that high for a typical overhaul. Which shop costs this much?

Even if it was that high, I'm still ahead of the program cost.


That's not me, that's Propulsion International on their program. What they say:

On GMP, Part 91 operators can extend the Hot Section from 2500 to 3500 hours and the Overhaul from 5000 to 7000 hours, adding significant value to the engines and aircraft, as well as lowering the hourly rate.

This is accomplished by using PI’s interval extension letter from Honeywell, the engine manufacturer, working with your local FAA FSDO to receive the approval.

Basically, put the engine on the program, it lasts longer when someone else has to pay. Now how does the engine know to last longer if you are on the program? Some magic there!

I've asked before how my engines can be on the 3500/7000 interval without paying for the program and no one will give me a straight answer. Can you?

Mike C.

Be curious how that is stated in the contract.


The extension is available to -10 and above engines without overhaul. It can occur literally in the last hour so it has nothing to do with how the engine has been maintained.


Are you -10? The engines prior to -10 can't get on the 5000 or 7000 interval from what I understand.

Mike C.

No engine shop I've asked has ever stated a price that high for a typical overhaul. Which shop costs this much?

Even if it was that high, I'm still ahead of the program cost.


That's not me, that's Propulsion International on their program. What they say:

On GMP, Part 91 operators can extend the Hot Section from 2500 to 3500 hours and the Overhaul from 5000 to 7000 hours, adding significant value to the engines and aircraft, as well as lowering the hourly rate.

This is accomplished by using PI’s interval extension letter from Honeywell, the engine manufacturer, working with your local FAA FSDO to receive the approval.

Basically, put the engine on the program, it lasts longer when someone else has to pay. Now how does the engine know to last longer if you are on the program? Some magic there!

I've asked before how my engines can be on the 3500/7000 interval without paying for the program and no one will give me a straight answer. Can you?

Mike C.

My engines are factory -10 engines.

Can you explain further how a part 91 operator can get the 3500 HSI interval without using the engine program?

The overhaul on the engine program won't be all new wheels, either.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

The typical fine print also allows them to provide you with time remaining engines instead of overhauling yours. You might not even get an overhaul out of the deal.

Mike C.