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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 16:39 
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An MU-2 with a pylon mounted turbofan on each side

Well, it did come with a pylon mounted engines as the prototype MU2A:
Attachment:
mitsu_mu-2.jpg

Didn't have single point, but also didn't have tip tanks, either.

Engines were Astazou which mostly got used on helicopters, about 500 HP each, but had cool annular intakes. Only a few MU2A ever made, never sold, switched to TPE331 for production.

You can't put turbofans on the MU2 (or other turboprops) since they aren't built for it. They don't have the cabin PSI to go higher, the brakes to stop, the fuel system to deliver the flow rates, the fuel capacity to have reasonable range, the stability to fly in thin air, and on and on...

Mike C.


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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 17:03 
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Username Protected wrote:

You can't put turbofans on the MU2 (or other turboprops) since they aren't built for it. They don't have the cabin PSI to go higher, the brakes to stop, the fuel system to deliver the flow rates, the fuel capacity to have reasonable range, the stability to fly in thin air, and on and on...



Eyeballing the MU-2 and the Mitsubishi Diamond MU-300 that became the Beechjet 400 there seems to be some similar design elements. The MU-300 came 15 years after the MU-2. I don't know how much similar systems were used between the two models but wouldn't surprise me coming from the same family.

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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 17:09 
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Where do you want to put the landing gear if you have a high wing? Long gangly legs from the wings for a wide, stable stance or short legs from the fuselage for a narrow, tippy stance? Which do you prefer as a pilot or as an operator?

Choices and compromises.

look at a picture of an AN12. Wing is above the fuselage, gear is below and to the side of it. The money-making tube is completely unobstructed. No stability issues with "narrow" gear in fact it's an advantage since it can operate on a narrower hard surface. Having wheels far out under the wings is a real handicap when operating on semi-prepared surfaces.


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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 17:13 
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The low wings of a Citation are a real issue when operating in the winter at small airports who pile up snow banks along the taxiways.

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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 17:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
look at a picture of an AN12. Wing is above the fuselage, gear is below and to the side of it. The money-making tube is completely unobstructed.

AN12 main landing gear goes into the baggage hold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31zXWNRZxFg

Thus it is affecting the "tube". Takes away baggage space. Fuselage pressurization vessel isn't round any more where the gear is (which adds weight for structure).

Small GA planes don't have a baggage hold under the passenger compartment. Requires a "big" airplane to make that work, not something personal jet sized.

Gear in wing doesn't have those problems, fuselage can stay round (witness the 525 Citations where they drop the spar under the fuselage just to not break the roundness).

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 17:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
Eyeballing the MU-2 and the Mitsubishi Diamond MU-300 that became the Beechjet 400 there seems to be some similar design elements. The MU-300 came 15 years after the MU-2. I don't know how much similar systems were used between the two models but wouldn't surprise me coming from the same family.

Yes, but the Diamond was designed to be a jet, the MU2 to be a turboprop. You can't switch engines alone.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 17:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
An MU-2 with a pylon mounted turbofan on each side :drool: A single point fuel system would make the fueling easier.


I was driving by KSJC about a year ago and saw a plane that looked exactly like an MU2 with turbofans under the wings. I wish I could have taken a picture but I was moving in traffic.

Vince


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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 17:42 
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I was driving by KSJC about a year ago and saw a plane that looked exactly like an MU2 with turbofans under the wings. I wish I could have taken a picture but I was moving in traffic.

Probably a Do328 Jet. A lot bigger than an MU2.
Attachment:
oe-htj-tyrolean-jet-service-dornier-do-328jet-300_PlanespottersNet_165253.jpg

Mike C.


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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 19:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
An MU-2 with a pylon mounted turbofan on each side :drool: A single point fuel system would make the fueling easier.


I was driving by KSJC about a year ago and saw a plane that looked exactly like an MU2 with turbofans under the wings. I wish I could have taken a picture but I was moving in traffic.

Vince

Attachment:
W24Y0F2H.jpg

A thusly converted Mu2 (experimental) with a SP fuel system would be the sheets.
Not sure how you would slow it down haha.. I start planning my speed about 5 miles from an airport in the Mu2 and I've got speed in mind about 50 miles from the airport in the Lear. A Turbofan Mu2 might be trickier. :)

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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 19:50 
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Username Protected wrote:
Fueling high wings isn't much fun (sorry MU-2 owners). Of course if you own the jet you probably don't fuel your own plane....

Fueling an MU2 is no fun. I hardly ever do it myself, maybe once a year.

Note that many times, though, you only require fueling the tips, which isn't too bad.

Quote:
Wing travel (sag at rest and lift at altitude and speed) is probably less disconcerting to the passengers of low wing planes - its not nearly as obvious....

It seems pretty obvious to airline passengers, the wing tip bouncing all around in turbulence.

I can tell if my MU2 has been fueled as I drive up to the airport just from the wing sag. It is about 8 inches from empty to full. No need to dip the tip tanks!

Mike C.



Mike,

I think the MU-2 is one incredibly sexy machine. Being based in Aiken I get to see them all of the time. Fueling the plane with 2 fuel hoses and 2 ladders makes it a little easier so you don't have to worry about the balancing act. I'm not a fan of the Garretts - the noise is assaulting to those within 500 yards.

The fly-in in Aiken recently was spectacular and the owners are among some of the nicest people I've met - a little cult similar to Harley owners, Bonanza owners, Aerostar owners... Lively group.

Peace,
Don

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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 19:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
An MU-2 with a pylon mounted turbofan on each side

Well, it did come with a pylon mounted engines as the prototype MU2A:
Attachment:
mitsu_mu-2.jpg

Didn't have single point, but also didn't have tip tanks, either.

Engines were Astazou which mostly got used on helicopters, about 500 HP each, but had cool annular intakes. Only a few MU2A ever made, never sold, switched to TPE331 for production.

You can't put turbofans on the MU2 (or other turboprops) since they aren't built for it. They don't have the cabin PSI to go higher, the brakes to stop, the fuel system to deliver the flow rates, the fuel capacity to have reasonable range, the stability to fly in thin air, and on and on...

Mike C.

Geeze. They managed to put turbofans on an Aerostar. You would think the mitts could do that also.

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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 20:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
AN12 main landing gear goes into the baggage hold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31zXWNRZxFg

Thus it is affecting the "tube". Takes away baggage space. Fuselage pressurization vessel isn't round any more where the gear is (which adds weight for structure).

Small GA planes don't have a baggage hold under the passenger compartment. Requires a "big" airplane to make that work, not something personal jet sized.

Gear in wing doesn't have those problems, fuselage can stay round (witness the 525 Citations where they drop the spar under the fuselage just to not break the roundness).

Mike C.

Not really, yes there is a bump for the mainwheels but it doesn't infringe on the cargo rollers, and thered is plenty of room to drive an truck in between them. The fuselage isn't round to start with and very few of them have pressurized cargo holds. Here is a shot of how ours were configured. The question i was responding to pertained to stability with the narrow gear. i found that it was no problem, and in general the narrow gear footprint was a huge advantage on the ground


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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2016, 22:21 
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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2016, 02:23 
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I have almost 3000 hours in my favorite airplane, the Avro RJ85 (Bae-146). I had one passenger quite agitated before pushback, insistent that the baggage doors had not been secured closed. Sitting exactly mid-fuselage, with the wheels underneath the massive gear doors, I'm sure many other people thought the same thing at one time or other.


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 Post subject: Re: High wing jets
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2016, 09:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
I was driving by KSJC about a year ago and saw a plane that looked exactly like an MU2 with turbofans under the wings. I wish I could have taken a picture but I was moving in traffic.

Probably a Do328 Jet. A lot bigger than an MU2.
Mike C.


Definitely not a DO328. This plane was not much bigger than an MU-2. It had fairly large turbofan engines that looked almost too big to fit under the wing. It was at Atlantic so I could see its perspective against other planes there. Or maybe I was just daydreaming.

Vince

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