BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Aug 2015, 22:42

Doug,

Are you going to sim school?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Aug 2015, 22:47

Username Protected wrote:

Doug,

Are you going to sim school?

yes Jesse. I plan on going to SimCom while the plane is in for annual. Hopefully that will be in September.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Aug 2015, 22:48

Good for you. Its eye opening...but more importantly, it takes all the mystery out of it and you KNOW the limits and limitations.

Looking forward to some video.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Aug 2015, 22:52

Username Protected wrote:

Good for you. Its eye opening...but more importantly, it takes all the mystery out of it and you KNOW the limits and limitations.

Looking forward to some video.

I agree. I just wish the sim could replicate the R/STOL characteristics. While the system are the same, I have been told the two planes are very different as far as Vmc and slow flight are concerned.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Aug 2015, 23:11

Congrats Doug,

I have a 421 with STOL and medium weight and 10 degrees flaps and it jumps off the ground and not under blue line. I also use SimCom they have been very good, they will give you as much info as you can take.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Aug 2015, 23:20

Username Protected wrote:

Congrats Doug,

I have a 421 with STOL and medium weight and 10 degrees flaps and it jumps off the ground and not under blue line. I also use SimCom they have been very good, they will give you as much info as you can take.

So you wait till blue line to rotate? What is your typical ground roll in that configuration?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Aug 2015, 23:29

Congratulations Doug!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Aug 2015, 00:05

Username Protected wrote:

Congrats Doug,

I have a 421 with STOL and medium weight and 10 degrees flaps and it jumps off the ground and not under blue line. I also use SimCom they have been very good, they will give you as much info as you can take.

So you wait till blue line to rotate? What is your typical ground roll in that configuration?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Aug 2015, 00:11

Username Protected wrote:

Most of the time I rotate about 10 knots above blue line just because at mid weights it accelerates there so quickly. If it's a short strip or dirt I start rotating about 10 knots before blue line and as the mains are leaving the runway I'm through blue line.

I operate out of a paved 3,100 runway and I am off midfield 1,500 very easily.

Using the full flap method does get me off the runway much sooner but I have not played around with it enough to see if it does save me time to start climbing out of that transition area.

The worst thing that I have found with the STOL is that the flaps don't create that much drag on descents and need to be planned accordingly. Maintenance has not been bad as I had heard. I had one time the flaps would not come down. No big deal just a broken chain, I think the fix came from a bicycle shop and a master link, in 15 years

Thanks Rocky. I would love to visit with you sometime and pick your brain.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Aug 2015, 00:16

Username Protected wrote:

1. you will never simulate this exact situation in simulator because, to my knowledge, there is not a 340 sim in existence that has STOL capabilities. To try this in a non STOL airplane would be foolhardy.

Sims are always somewhat different than the airplane they attempt to mimic. Yet, they can still be useful even if they differ.

The STOL kit does not change the fundamentals of Vmc. It may change the speed at which it occurs, but the basics are the same.

If you get the sim plane in the air at the lowest speed it will fly and have an engine failure, the behavior will be instructive.

It would be foolhardy to avoid using a sim simply because you think it isn't high enough fidelity. It is instructive and helpful.

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2. I agree that the risk is high, and I also agree that, under most circumstances, it would be unnecessary even on my short strip. A normal takeoff ( 10 degrees flaps,rotate at 75 knots) will yield a 1,200' takeoff roll on most days.

My point exactly, will you ever ask the plane to do more than that? If so, why?

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3. while published Vmc is 71 knots for this airplane, he demonstrated to me that it is, in fact, closer to 65 knots at the weight and CG that I will operate off my strip.

Vmc is not strongly correlated to weight. Forward CG does help.

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4. any major deviation from centerline in a twin should result in a spring loaded reaction to pull the power if the gear is down. Take what you can get at that point.

Takeoff in a gusty crosswind and see if you can tell the difference fast enough between the plane being hit by a gust and an engine failing. It is sometimes not that easy.

In any case, it takes at least one second to mentally decipher something has gone wrong, and another second to decide to do something about it, so being "spring loaded" doesn't negate there will be a delay.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Aug 2015, 00:34

Username Protected wrote:

Then you say with certainty that I will be 100' off centerline within 3 seconds. How do you know?

Done it in the sim.

You simply can't hold the centerline with a twin engine out under Vmc. That's the definition of being under Vmc.

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The time period we are speaking about is on the magnitude of 3-4 seconds.

Yes, but if it does happen, it can be fatal. You are dealing with a 6000 pound airplane with 180 gallons of fuel traveling 70 knots. This isn't a bush plane losing an engine.

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I submit that the odds of that particular scenario are so remote that it is statistically almost insignificant.

That could be because smart pilots avoid the situation in the first place.

There should be no need to fly a twin under Vmc, ever. The ground roll advantage is minimal and it leads to a shallower initial climb. I would advise twin pilots to not follow the takeoff procedure described, ever, and certainly not until they have flown a sim and understood the risk they are taking.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Aug 2015, 00:49

Sounds to me like he fully understands the risks involved, but has decided they can be mitigated to an acceptable level for him. I'm all for it. Do what you want to do cause that's why we all fly. BTW sweet bird :thumbup:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Aug 2015, 01:27

Congratulations. It sounds like a good fit for your needs. I will miss you from the ranks of B36 ownership.

My little secret: I am looking at 414 / 421's :tape:

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Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Aug 2015, 08:46

Username Protected wrote:

Congratulations. It sounds like a good fit for your needs. I will miss you from the ranks of B36 ownership.

My little secret: I am looking at 414 / 421's :tape:

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I have seen some very nice 414s and 421s. Wish I could get one to work for me!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Aug 2015, 08:50

Username Protected wrote:

Most of the time I rotate about 10 knots above blue line just because at mid weights it accelerates there so quickly. If it's a short strip or dirt I start rotating about 10 knots before blue line and as the mains are leaving the runway I'm through blue line.

Rocky -

Did you really mean blue line? I suspect you either meant red line (Vmc) or blue line is a whole lot less in the stol 421s... My blue line is 111kts.

While Ive got you: any issues with operating a 421 off grass/dirt? I've never done it with mine and there are some strips I'd like to try...

Robert

Guess its time