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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2014, 22:22 
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Looks like a Citation IISP (551): I have numbers for a straight II. The SP would be under 12,500 pounds. Any guesses on altitude and temp at the time?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2014, 22:38 
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Wikipedia says runway length of 1,762 feet; gradient of 18.6% and altitude of 6,588 feet from one source. I sure don't have that gradient in the book. What is does say is subtract 1.5 knots for 1% grade and 2% is twice that but if V1 exceeds Vr, Vr must be used.
Assume 0 degrees C; 12,000 pounds for 7,000 foot elevation makes flat runway length 3530.
As I said, going isn't the issue, it's if one gets near V1 and has to abort. Don't think they'd ever stop on the runway. Vr is 109 with 15% flaps.

It all works if nothing goes wrong; goes wrong, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2014, 22:58 
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The ability (best I can see) to dive for airspeed at the end of the runway affects the calculation. Would there ever be cause to stop?


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2014, 23:04 
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We had a European customer years ago, he would bring his Cheyenne to us for inspections. He was based in Switzerland and flew to Couchevel airport often in the winter, the attraction is once you power up to the top of the runway to the plateau, you park, open the door and strap your skis on and go. The lift takes you backup to the airport.

A stabilized approach is a must, a go around is not an option. You must have a certification to authorize flying in or out of this airport. There is a good video I have seen on the web of a Baron landing there, search Baron landing at Courchevel on YouTube.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2014, 23:09 
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Location: Peachtree City GA / Stoke-On-Trent UK
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I used to go into Courcheval a few times each winter in a B200. The family who owned it had a home nearby. Landing there requires a certificate (Licence de Site) which requires a sign-off every 6 months. Oddly( (to me) there are snow-covered strips in the area that are a lot more challenging for which you only needed the mountain rating (if you were French in a French plane) that was good for 24 months. I was flying a ZS-lettered plane and it wasn't on skis so we never got into the nitty gritty of the mountain rating.

If you think it looks fast in those videos, my impression from the cockpit was always that the whole approach happened in slow motion. There certainly wasn't any problem getting stopped.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2014, 23:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
Would there ever be cause to stop?


Just before you are to rotate you get a Master Warning light and several annunciators illuminate; want to launch and figure out what it is in the air, or on the ground? Do you feel lucky? Once you start carrying several passengers, considerations change a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2014, 23:17 
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Treat it like a catapult. Once it fires you're going flying. Try to stay there.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2014, 00:12 
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Just before you are to rotate you get a Master Warning light and several annunciators illuminate; want to launch and figure out what it is in the air, or on the ground? Do you feel lucky? Once you start carrying several passengers, considerations change a bit.

drilled into me during the checkride there - there are no "on the ground" considerations except when to raise the wheels. From the time you release the brakes at the top you are already flying.

the most hair raising part for me was parking - a potentially slick surface combined with the density of people sometimes hanging around the top including children walking around on the edge of the ramp.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2014, 00:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
Treat it like a catapult. Once it fires you're going flying.


That ^

The negative obstacles at the end of the strip is what makes this reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2014, 00:46 
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Yep, did it in the military in Uncle's planes. Won't do it in mine, especially, with passengers. No troops in contact for me any more or cogent military reasons. Family and safety are number one along with making it as much of a limo ride for pacs as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2014, 00:51 
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Yep, did it in the military in Uncle's planes. Won't do it in mine, especially, with passengers. No troops in contact for me any more or cogent military reasons. Family and safety are number one along with making it as much of a limo ride for pacs as possible.

Perhaps a little overly dramatic. This isn't an aircraft carrier. Yes you need an endorsement to land there but it's just regular Joe's in and out of there every day in ho-hum planes, many of them lycoming O-320 powered.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2014, 01:37 
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My first time landing a jet there, I got onto the brakes pretty hard. I would say it was very close to maximum braking. I felt really stupid when I had to then use almost full power to taxi up the rest of the runway ....

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2014, 09:57 
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Perhaps a little overly dramatic. This isn't an aircraft carrier. Yes you need an endorsement to land there but it's just regular Joe's in and out of there every day in ho-hum planes, many of them lycoming O-320 powered.


Might be open to it in the C90 without pacs until I knew what I was doing and taking the course. Thread is about a Citation doing it. I wasn't judgmental; just said I wouldn't do it in my plane (Citation II is to what I'm referring).

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2014, 10:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
My first time landing a jet there, I got onto the brakes pretty hard. I would say it was very close to maximum braking. I felt really stupid when I had to then use almost full power to taxi up the rest of the runway ....



Pics? Pirep on the check out? :cross:

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Takes off from mountain strip in France
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2014, 23:15 
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Location: CMB7, Ottawa, Canada
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Exact,
I know a few guys that flys TBMs in there and they say keep your speed up to get up the hill.
Pretty cool place.



Username Protected wrote:
My first time landing a jet there, I got onto the brakes pretty hard. I would say it was very close to maximum braking. I felt really stupid when I had to then use almost full power to taxi up the rest of the runway ....

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