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20 Jan 2026, 21:28 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 08:03 
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Joined: 06/08/12
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Well done Mark. You handled the emergency like a pro. And here I was working away behind my desk while you were fighting controls with your knee.....
Interesting to read about your thought processes. Not sure I would have been that calm cool and collected.
Full blown emergency in my mind.
I wish we weren't so reluctant to call it in.
Didn't change the outcome this time, but you never know ....

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 08:08 
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Good work Mark!

Assuming it happen soon after you leveled off?

Re: your thoughts about what airport to deviate to. Airlines have gotten into trouble for deviating to a maintenance base instead of landing at the nearest suitable airport. I'm sure it's less risk for trouble under part91. I've been there and gone to maintenance vs nearest suitable before as well....

Allens link to NTSB above says Immediately notify for a flight control system failure... -
Quote:
§830.5 Immediate notification.
The operator of any civil aircraft, or any public aircraft not operated by the Armed Forces or an intelligence agency of the United States, or any foreign aircraft shall immediately, and by the most expeditious means available, notify the nearest National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) office,1 when:


Also might consider a NASA form just in case....


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 09:05 
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Joined: 01/30/08
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Flight control malfunction is a mandatory report btw so a NASA report at this point is well advised.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 09:43 
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Joined: 12/29/10
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Mark -

First off, well handled. While I haven't (yet?) flown with you, due to your writing I feel like I know your piloting style and have always been impressed with your thoughtfulness and aviation demeanor - so, no big surprise you handled this well!

With the luxury BT hindsight, I do think I would have declared. If nothing else, it gains you flexibility and you wouldn't feel obligated to hit the altitudes on the STAR. Also, and I apologize if this is macabre, if you did crash the jet the NTSB and BT Crash Talk would at least have some idea about what happened and that it wasn't pilot error.

Again, well done!

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 10:02 
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Had you been deiced recently? We had an issue on a CJ4 with an aileron cable freezing up at altitude due to residual fluid re-hydrating in the balance bay. The crew was able to break it free on descent into warmer air. Cessna Service Center opened up the bays and cleaned out a ton of residual fluid. They said it's a common problem during winter months.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 10:26 
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Joined: 02/17/10
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Had you been deiced recently? We had an issue on a CJ4 with an aileron cable freezing up at altitude due to residual fluid re-hydrating in the balance bay. The crew was able to break it free on descent into warmer air. Cessna Service Center opened up the bays and cleaned out a ton of residual fluid. They said it's a common problem during winter months.


De-icing fluid freezes at normal ops altitudes? That is counter-intuitive...


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 10:50 
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Joined: 05/11/10
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Aircraft: 1991 Bonanza A36
Less than -60 freezes most compounds.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 11:27 
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I'd file a NASA report just in case

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 11:42 
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Good job! Sorry it happened, but you worked through it fine. I'm with you on not declaring in this case. I would have been poised to if Center wasn't giving me what I needed, but not actually declare unless they didn't. I have reported an issue before and got expedited handling without actually declaring which worked fine.
It will be interesting to see what it is. Was this actually a flight controls system failure per the reg.? Trim bound, but it sounded like actual flight controls worked fine. Just asking.
I think the reason it's reportable is if you couldn't get it down safely, they would know what the problem was in addition to just being aware of a problem that could affect controlled flight.
Once again, good job.
I agree on NASA form.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 14:07 
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Was this actually a flight controls system failure per the reg.? Trim bound, but it sounded like actual flight controls worked fine. Just asking.
I think the reason it's reportable is if you couldn't get it down safely.


Trim tabs are part of the flight controls. You think you can fly a complex plane with no trim?

If he didn't get it down safely there would be an FAA report and the NTSB would be automatically notified. The purpose of 830.5 is for the NTSB to become aware of potential safety problems before accidents happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 17:21 
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Joined: 01/29/09
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De-icing fluid freezes at normal ops altitudes? That is counter-intuitive...


And TKS fluid also..
Once had a TKS (egg) timer stick on a 700 Hawker, when we leveled at altitude, I noticed the leading edges were crusty with ice.

Jeff

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 19:55 
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Whew! Nice job. Glad to read about the favorable outcome. Trim failures are one of the things we train for, just hope we never have to work through one. Nice job pushing your way through it. I hear what you're saying about how declaring the emer wouldn't necessarily accomplish anything. You had the problem, it wasn't going away, and you just needed to forge ahead the best you could. Nevertheless, it was still an emer situation that required action. Your intuition about slowing down and changing configurations slowly was spot on. Way to go. Curious to see what you find out.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 20:21 
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With both hands on the yoke (and a knee!) I guess grabbing the checklist would have been difficult but curious as to what Cessna says about Elev Trim Fail or Elev Trim Runaway in the QRH.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 20:36 
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Always knew where the trim CB was: left panel front, three our four down.
From the II
Runaway Trim
Autopilot/trim disengage switch--press/release
Pitch trim CB--PULL
Manual elevator trim --as required

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Last edited on 31 Jan 2017, 20:41, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2017, 20:41 
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What is the pitch trim mechanism like on the Citation? Is it a spooler with a cable to a trim tab or is it an all trimming stabilizer?

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