Dave,

It sounds like you really have your P dialed in. Most of my trips are within 400nm for business. In my case, it would be really hard to justify spending two to three times more for increased utility on 10% of my trips (and sometimes less utility in the case of the eclipse). There is no room for financial justification in the turbine world when you consider the capability of what you already have. Still, I understand the attraction.

Best....

Pretty much right on Jesse!

There is an allure and on these long trips I make, other planes would fit. The 58P serves a real niche as far as affordability and utility. Of course, they aren't making them any more and haven't for some time. So, there are a lot of nice things that haven't been upgraded like the pressure differential. Cessna has been much better about move up planes and getting STCs on their older planes like the 340. There's just a small universe of 58Ps and it hasn't been worth it financially for the manufacturer to upgrade it.

Our bird has been fantastic to us overall. We're more than 400 hours over TBO now and it's running strong. We have the engine replacement reserve side funded. Lots of great things. The 58P wasn't designed to be a pressurized plane from scratch, as you know. The 700 fpm rate of climb to keep cylinders cool is a bit of an issue as are a few other things. So, we keep looking around, but don't find anything that's a clear step up with reasonable price and economy.

A TBM would come closest from what I see, but it's much more expensive to purchase, operating costs are more and it's a single. Not to mention it's not a domestically produced plane. Some folks forget, when something goes wrong, they may be purchasing a part for a 3 million dollar plane! That can get expensive. If not domestically produced and serviced, one can get into currency translation issues. I just don't know much about the quality of TBM.

I'll probably keep poking around and getting the thoughts of others with ownership or operating insight and maybe find a way to fly some other birds and see what I think. I'm more detailed than a lot of folks and ask a lot of questions if not provided facts as you can see.

Best,

Dave

Dave,

A thought....I had my fuel servos cranked up to produce around 36 gph per side. I had a temp. limited climbout last summer and became concerned on what might have been in a single engine scenario under the same condition. Now, I have the option of max power climbs with chts in the low 300dF range.

Jesse

I'll bet that if the 58P were produced today it would be priced somewhere between 1.5 and 2 mil so you're probably already maintaining something pretty close to that 3 mil TBM. I also believe that one of the reasons behind the large depreciation of earlier TBMs is the significant improvements that were made during production. The first models had far less capability (payload & speed) along with pretty unsophisticated avionics (upgrading the panel on something like a TBM isn't generally feasible or practical). Of course, almost any vehicle will suffer an immediate loss of value at purchase related to the difference between the sale price and the manufacturer's price for a new one and when the starting point is 3 mil, that drop is pretty breathtaking.

Dave,

A thought....I had my fuel servos cranked up to produce around 36 gph per side. I had a temp. limited climbout last summer and became concerned on what might have been in a single engine scenario under the same condition. Now, I have the option of max power climbs with chts in the low 300dF range.

Jesse

Well said Lance. The recommendations I've received are to look at the C-2 which seems to be a 2 million dollar plane used. Can't really tell on Controller or ASO. To many listed with no price.

Best,

Dave

TBM 700C2's are definitely not $2 million airplanes anymore. I'm in the process of finalizing the sale of one of those TBM 700C2's that is currently listed on Controller (representing the seller in this case). The 700C2's (built from 2003 until early 2006) are definitely trading well south of $2 million. As a matter of fact, you are just now starting to see 2006 non-G1000 850's trading in the $1.9's. In my opinion the 700C2 represents the "sweet spot" in the TBM lineage. If you'd like to talk about TBM 700's offline, please shoot me a PM. I have lived and breathed that market for the past 9 months. Also just had the TBM I am selling appraised in person by an NAAA appraiser.

Also, while CAI's operating cost numbers are fairly accurate, their "sales price" numbers are not...since they are based off of "asking prices."

-Neal

Sending a PM.

For those that want to see the info on the Eclipse partnership offer here at Addison, they have a web site at http://execminijet.com/

Best,

Dave

Dave, is Michelin still the only one making Eclipse tires? That is one of the weaknesses. The tires were designed for the Williams engines before Raburn got into a pissing contest with them. The Pratt & Whitney engines are heavier. They allow for the heavier gross but the tires were not redesigned. As of last time I talked to my brother about tires, Michelin was still the only supplier and they were making only one tire for the Eclipse.

Thanks Ron. I don't know, I'll ask. I'm going to meet with the folks Thursday.

The agreement is the plane will be brought back to the factory and completed as a Total Eclipse Jet before our partnership contributions are funded. So, all the certs and upgrades would be done. That would leave things like you mentioned to be concerned about and future support. In addition, I really worry about the glass panel by Avio. Many of the systems tie in through that. If something happened to them and they didn't support it in the future, that could be a real mess. Also, even if they stayed around, fixing a problem in the system could be expensive: can't just replace part of it.

They've assured me the plane will make book numbers or better. We'll see how they do that. I still have mixed feelings, but it has an allure. This is one of the later serial number jets with 100 hours on it, not a refurbished Day Jet.

Best,

Dave

I have over 1200 hours in the Eclipse...so all your speculation disturbs me. It meets the speed and range specs published...360 KTAS at FL360, it flies very nicely at 410 and burns 175 lbs per engine up there. the new company has been in the black since taking over and has Sikorsky money backing their service and supply chain .....there are a few critical parts not being supported but they are on top of the problems.
The FIKI and dual garmin plus software update make the a/c as modern as any other GA a/c out there.
I am not sure about the $100k fraction but if they are selling out there for 1.3M fully upgraded. What serial number is at Addison......it is important to know what status the a/c is currently as per the upgrade.
Kent Ewing

I guess you know the Avio is the result of another of Raburn's ego contests. This time with Avidyne... He had a plausible idea and then shot himself in the foot. It will be interesting to see how Eclipse fares especially in this economic environment. Could work either way for a small "inexpensive" jet. It seems they are on a good track now.

I'm glad to hear it wasn't a day jet. My brother wouldn't buy one of them either. Given the Total Eclipse refurbishing and upgrades it may not be an issue, but certainly one you won't have to wade through.

I wish you wisdom on your decision.

Thanks Kent. It helps to have someone confirm the plane makes book numbers. I just didn't know and no one else on here really seemed to be able to confirm it. I have the serial number at home. I'll try to post tonight.

From what I'm hearing, a Total Eclipse or upgrading an existing plane to all the spec of a Total Eclipse is about $2.1 to 2.2 million. I hear rumors some are cheaper, but I've seen numbers from two folks that come in here and had another fella with one confirm that. Haven't talked to the new president yet, but probably will if I move forward.

My big decision is this is a lot of money for me and do I want something with issues or something more proven if I do it at all. I may need to reinvest these funds in my business and that would eliminate this completely.

Best,

Dave

I have no dog in this fight but it sure seems like people are really trying to wish the Eclipse into reality. Do they still have the ridiculous maintenance and training requirements as when they first came out? You know, absolutely know, that Cessna will be there when you need it. You're hoping Eclipse will be there.

Thanks Scott! Exactly what I'm trying to weigh.

Dave