Kill the KA gravy train? A redesign insures the gravy train goes another 50 years. If they do nothing to the KA it will eventually die. It’s too old fashioned.

Kill the KA gravy train? A redesign insures the gravy train goes another 50 years. If they do nothing to the KA it will eventually die. It’s too old fashioned.

Yes there is..... the PC12 and the single pilot jet. There's loads of competition.

Fighting back with a "me too" is the wrong move.

Fighting back with a new KA design that makes the PC12 look like a clown plane is the right move. Textron should be marketing how much "safer" 2 engines is than 1 regardless of whether it's true or not. It's a very easy story to tell. Most lay people will agree. Textron is doing none of this. They're hiding.

If Textron wasn't already spending millions on a clean sheet SETP I'd agree with you. I think they'd be better off spending the same money on a clean sheet KA.

You're a master of reading what you want to read. There is no competition in the twin turboprop market, hence my short/contaminated runway qualification.

How many of these hypothetical new twin turboprops do you think they could sell a year?

I agree that they should be marketing a twin is safer than a single, but they don't have to spend millions in development dollars to do so. They already have one. Building a SETP takes that marketing pitch away from them. Probably not a good move. We both agree, the Denali is likely a mistake from a MFG perspective, but great for us!

Because I disagree that most buyers group airplanes into "single" or "twin" categories. I did not buy a Pilatus because it's a single. I don't care how many engines an airplane has. I buy utility. The market agrees with this.

Buyers buy utility, technology and image. The KA is lacking on all 3.

Did Jason just say a new King Air would make the PC-12 look like a clown plane?

But... I agree, I think Textron should have invested in a new King Air 350 with a Denali “jet” style airframe and -67’s... how fast would it be? 370 knots?

Maybe a -64 powered 250 that is smaller and lighter so that it has good useful load?

SETP’s would have a tough time competing with bigger twins that are 50 - 70kts faster.

Because I disagree that most buyers group airplanes into "single" or "twin" categories. I did not buy a Pilatus because it's a single. I don't care how many engines an airplane has. I buy utility. The market agrees with this.

Buyers buy utility, technology and image. The KA is lacking on all 3.

We agree! Fortunately others don't, or we'd be paying even more for our SETP. At the end of the day Textron should be squeezing out every technological advancement they can out of the KA line short of a recertification (composites, FADEC, more efficient engines, etc.). Once they've taken that as far as they can, clean sheet a twin turboprop. I just don't think they're there yet.

I said that if I were the boss at Textron, I'd be crushing the competition with my newly redesigned, bad ass looking, 350 knots+ KA. My marketing would be exaggerating the benefits of 2 engines over 1 and I'd be labelling the PC12 as clown plane.

Textron is doing nothing but "retreading the old KA tire".

All the more reason to redesign the KA instead of building the Denali.

The used market is a different subject. Used buyers are different. I'm talking about newly designed products like the Denali.

I believe Textron reached that point with the KA 25 years ago. You think they're not there yet. In the mean time Cirrus, Embraer, Honda and Pilatus have entered and taken huge market share.

Our client could and would buy a new Pilatus. Can’t.

You're proving my point.

If the market for a twin turboprop is so good (and I think it is), then why is Textron building a Denali? I'd build a twin turboprop that would crush the PC12 and challenge the PC24.

The Denali is a copycat. Denali is not "innovation". The second you stop innovating you have accepted defeat.

Textron is in the parts and support business for the King Airs and Citations. Good products with staying power. The parts and maintenance business is going to be good for a while. But..........

They need to be innovative. The M2 is refreshed CJ1+, and not very innovative. The original 510 was actually innovative, and they killed it allowing the Phenom 100 a foothold.

Sure, they are developing stuff in the Supersized part of the market to compete with the likes of challengers and falcons, but even there they are struggling. Their biggest sales asset/feature when selling new A/C is their service network.

The problem with marketing that METP's are safer than SETP's is that they aren't. Even if you just look at engine related fatal accidents in KA's versus PC12's... The PC12 wins and with 6 million fleet hours in the PC12 it is not a statistical fluke. There are almost no new twins being built for the up and coming pilots. Want new it is a single piston or a single turbine. METP's are a handful when an engine quits and they are over twice as likely to suffer an engine loss, making that reality more likely. The Denali will be a success. If selling several hundred units defines success. The future is the single, even as unforward thinking as Textron is, they see the writing on the wall. The future of the twin is the twin jet. Center line thrust, as boring as it gets. Even twin jets are getting it handed to them by Cirrus with the single engine jet.