BeechTalk - BT - Airplane Purchase Research: Pressurized Twin Options

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2018, 20:26

Username Protected wrote:

Makes sense to me... when are you going to buy a jet!!! :D

When I find the right one. That's both selecting the right type, and then finding the right example.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2018, 20:31

Username Protected wrote:

Makes sense to me... when are you going to buy a jet!!!

When I find the right one. That's both selecting the right type, and then finding the right example.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2018, 21:21

Username Protected wrote:

501 SP Mike; easy to fly, pretty good short field capability.

Low speed, short range.

Not a meaningful enough change in mission profile over what I got now.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2018, 21:35

Username Protected wrote:

501 SP Mike; easy to fly, pretty good short field capability.

Low speed, short range.

Not a meaningful enough change in mission profile over what I got now.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Feb 2018, 22:48

Username Protected wrote:

You might be faced with those limitations if you have a requirement for an SP airplane.

Well, maybe.

501 + Williams (Stallion) is a significant range/speed improvement.

501 + Williams + extra fuel (Eagle II) is more range.

But beyond that, I'm willing to get an SPE to allow me to fly SP the legacy part 25 Citations and that opens up S550, S550 + Williams, 560, Ultra. The long term impact of the SPE is that I need an extra day in annual training.

Quote:

The 501 SP might get you over weather that the Moo Too won't.

Yeah, not too often that would happen in my experience, and the MU2 lands at shorter fields, so I judge the net mission capability figure or merit isn't moved enough for a 501 stock engines. It is about a 15% speed increase, and about a 10% range reduction. It just isn't exciting enough to get a jet for. I'd probably go with a 441 over a stock 501 in that case.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Feb 2018, 02:17

Username Protected wrote:

But beyond that, I'm willing to get an SPE to allow me to fly SP the legacy part 25 Citations and that opens up S550, S550 + Williams, 560, Ultra. The long term impact of the SPE is that I need an extra day in annual training.

That 14 day initial, 6-10 day SPE recurring yearly will literally make it the slowest aircraft you've ever owned. Just get an Avanti and go just as far and just as fast without all the hassle.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Feb 2018, 08:55

Username Protected wrote:

You might be faced with those limitations if you have a requirement for an SP airplane.

Well, maybe.

501 + Williams (Stallion) is a significant range/speed improvement.

501 + Williams + extra fuel (Eagle II) is more range.

But beyond that, I'm willing to get an SPE to allow me to fly SP the legacy part 25 Citations and that opens up S550, S550 + Williams, 560, Ultra. The long term impact of the SPE is that I need an extra day in annual training.

Quote:

The 501 SP might get you over weather that the Moo Too won't.

Yeah, not too often that would happen in my experience, and the MU2 lands at shorter fields, so I judge the net mission capability figure or merit isn't moved enough for a 501 stock engines. It is about a 15% speed increase, and about a 10% range reduction. It just isn't exciting enough to get a jet for. I'd probably go with a 441 over a stock 501 in that case.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Feb 2018, 08:58

Username Protected wrote:

But beyond that, I'm willing to get an SPE to allow me to fly SP the legacy part 25 Citations and that opens up S550, S550 + Williams, 560, Ultra. The long term impact of the SPE is that I need an extra day in annual training.

That 14 day initial, 6-10 day SPE recurring yearly will literally make it the slowest aircraft you've ever owned. Just get an Avanti and go just as far and just as fast without all the hassle.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Feb 2018, 09:25

Username Protected wrote:

MIke,

Remember you need 500 hours PIC turbine to get a SP waiver for a Part 25 airplane so one of these may not be the best first jet idea.

Mike

500 hours copilot vs. step up jet ... probably a wash

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Feb 2018, 09:32

Username Protected wrote:

MIke,

Remember you need 500 hours PIC turbine to get a SP waiver for a Part 25 airplane so one of these may not be the best first jet idea.

Mike

The SPE requirement is for 500 of turbine time, not turbojet time. Last time I checked, Mike's MU-2 is turbine...

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Feb 2018, 09:33

Username Protected wrote:

That 14 day initial, 6-10 day SPE recurring yearly will literally make it the slowest aircraft you've ever owned.

Those numbers are inflated over typical experience. In any case, I think of training like a vacation, so I don't mind it.

Once past the initial, the SPE requires only one extra day per year. I am likely to spend less time per year on Citation training than MU2 since I'd probably go to once a year instead of every 6 months.

Quote:

Just get an Avanti and go just as far and just as fast without all the hassle.

The Avanti is slower because of the time it spends in the shop.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Feb 2018, 09:35

Username Protected wrote:

Remember you need 500 hours PIC turbine to get a SP waiver for a Part 25 airplane so one of these may not be the best first jet idea.

1200 hours PIC MU2 satisfies the requirement.

Legally, I could go to Simcom, get type rating in sim, get SPE in sim, and be legal to solo a Citation II the next day.

Insurance will require mentoring, which I concur with.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Feb 2018, 09:38

Username Protected wrote:

No thanks, I'd rather stop for gas.

If it was just me, yes.

If I am carrying a plane full of other people, saving 1.5 hours on a trip quickly adds up to more man hours than the SPE time per year.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Feb 2018, 13:10

Username Protected wrote:

That 14 day initial, 6-10 day SPE recurring yearly will literally make it the slowest aircraft you've ever owned.

Those numbers are inflated over typical experience. In any case, I think of training like a vacation, so I don't mind it.

Once past the initial, the SPE requires only one extra day per year. I am likely to spend less time per year on Citation training than MU2 since I'd probably go to once a year instead of every 6 months.

Quote:

Just get an Avanti and go just as far and just as fast without all the hassle.

The Avanti is slower because of the time it spends in the shop.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Feb 2018, 13:48

Username Protected wrote:

Training once a year

I realize your time is a valuable commodity, but I think you'd maximize the safety of the jet by training every six months; just my view.

I will probably do that initially.

The observation is that many of the physical parts of training in the turboprop, such as engine cuts, do benefit from reinforcement every 6 months. They require "muscle memory" to handle well, something you practice instead of a piece of knowledge you learn.

Those issues in the jet seem milder, less muscle memory, more procedural which doesn't fade as fast as something physical.

Meanwhile, the jet critical bits, like approaches, can and often do happen routinely in operation, so that gets reinforced normally.

I've had more than one pilot who has flown both turboprops and jets express that longer training intervals is not as problematic in the jets.

Mike C.