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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2017, 13:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
I enjoy getting their 5-10 minute video update about twice a week.

Like most of you, I still feel this project is "Too good to believe", but man, they are putting in a ton of work to see this project to fruition.

Of course, the proof is in the pudding, once they get (or if they get) a flyable version and release the specs.




I'm in the same camp. The pragmatist in me is wondering how he'll meet the performance and range numbers being quoted. But they do seem to be doing an incredible amount of work for a scam/vaporware/paperairplane. :shrug:

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2017, 22:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
I enjoy getting their 5-10 minute video update about twice a week.

Like most of you, I still feel this project is "Too good to believe", but man, they are putting in a ton of work to see this project to fruition.

Of course, the proof is in the pudding, once they get (or if they get) a flyable version and release the specs.




I'm in the same camp. The pragmatist in me is wondering how he'll meet the performance and range numbers being quoted. But they do seem to be doing an incredible amount of work for a scam/vaporware/paperairplane. :shrug:


What "incredible amount of work" are you referring to?
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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2017, 22:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
What "incredible amount of work" are you referring to?


I have been interested enough to skim multiple videos. They really are putting in a lot of work on building the prototype. Where I have suspend belief is some of the math just does not make sense.
e.g. a 15% drag reduction compared to Cirrus, does not give you an increase of 15% in speed.
They are predicting a BSFC which is better then the car engine gets in normally daily driving....

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2017, 22:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
Where I have suspend belief is some of the math just does not make sense.
e.g. a 15% drag reduction compared to Cirrus, does not give you an increase of 15% in speed.
They are predicting a BSFC which is better then the car engine gets in normally daily driving....

Tim

It's generally a bad sign for an engineering project if your engineers are bad at math.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2017, 23:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
Where I have suspend belief is some of the math just does not make sense.
e.g. a 15% drag reduction compared to Cirrus, does not give you an increase of 15% in speed.
They are predicting a BSFC which is better then the car engine gets in normally daily driving....

Tim

It's generally a bad sign for an engineering project if your engineers are bad at math.


:coffee:

Tim

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 09:29 
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Quote:
What "incredible amount of work" are you referring to?


https://medium.com/@RaptorAircraft

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 09:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
Where I have suspend belief is some of the math just does not make sense.
e.g. a 15% drag reduction compared to Cirrus, does not give you an increase of 15% in speed.
They are predicting a BSFC which is better then the car engine gets in normally daily driving....

Tim

It's generally a bad sign for an engineering project if your engineers are bad at math.



Ha,

definitely made me laugh out loud this morning Greg. :coffee:
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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 09:48 
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Quote:
What "incredible amount of work" are you referring to?


https://medium.com/@RaptorAircraft



Thanks Frank.

Lance,

I'm referring to the fact that they haven't been Just Building a Prototype They've been machining the forms to create the plugs on which the prototype and presumably all subsequent production models will be molded off of.

This isn't just some "carve a shape out of foam, slap on some fiberglass and call it an airplane" sorta project.


As to the math being way off? Gotta admit that I'm pretty skeptical as well as to whether or not he'll ever get those #'s.

But I am cautiously optimistic that he will indeed bring a product to market that maybe, just maybe might satisfy the requirements of many of us out here. Even if it is only a 200kt aircraft with 1,000 nm range, and can do that in pressurized comfort with a glass cockpit and for under $150K?

I know, I know, a lot of if's, but here's to hopin he pulls it off. :cheers: :cross:

In closing, I gotta tell some of you guys that it never ceases to amaze me how utterly pessimistic you can be. It's almost as if you are truly hopin this project falls on its face.

I for one don't understand that mentality.

Why would we not want this fella to succeed? Why would we not want a new kid on the block offering a high performance pressurized aircraft that can be had for the cost of a 40 year old A36?

But, what the heck do I know.






Ya know, in retrospect, all the nay sayers are absolutely right....



Quote:
Equality 7-2521 writes from the forest to which he has fled that he has abandoned hope and believes he will sleep on the grass for a few days until the beasts come to eat his body. He feels that he has aged a lifetime in this day. He recounts the events of the day: he is able to walk right into the meeting of the World Council of Scholars because there are no guards to stop him. The first thing he notices is the sky shining in the windows and a painting on the wall, depicting the twenty men who invented the candle. The shapeless forms of the scholars are huddled around a long table. As he enters, the scholars turn to him, but they do not know what to think. He addresses them in a loud voice and in greeting.

Collective 0-0009, the oldest and wisest of the scholars, asks Equality 7-2521 who he is, and Equality 7-2521 gives him his name and tells him he is a street sweeper. The scholars are angry and scared that a street sweeper should have interrupted their meeting. Equality 7-2521 stops their murmurs by telling them he has brought them the greatest gift ever presented to mankind, and they listen to him while he tells them the story of the invention of the lightbulb, the tunnel, and his incarceration in the Palace of Corrective Detention. The scholars hear out his story, but when he lights the lightbulb, they become terrified and huddle against the walls, trembling together. Equality 7-2521 laughs at them and tells them that he has tamed the sky for them and has presented to them the key of the earth.

Collective 0-0009 lambasts Equality 7-2521 for breaking all the laws of their society and even boasting of doing so. The other scholars begin slinging insults and threats at Equality 7-2521, telling him they will have him burned at the stake or lashed to death. Equality 7-2521 tells them he does not care what they do with his body but that he wants them only to protect the light. The scholars tell him that what is not achieved collectively cannot be good and what is not thought by all men cannot be true. They tell him that there have often been scholars who thought they had brilliants ideas, but when their brothers voted against them, they abandoned their work. They worry that the light will ruin the Department of Candles, which was only recently established and took great labor to be ratified, and that it will ruin the plans of the World Council, without which not even the sun can rise. One scholar concludes that if the light lightens the toil of men, it is evil because toil is the end for which men exist. The scholars conclude that the light will be destroyed.

Equality 7-2521 cannot abide the destruction of the lightbulb, so he grabs his invention and flees the council. He runs blindly until he collapses and discovers he is in the Uncharted Forest, where he supposes he will die alone. He realizes, however, that he had been lying to himself, that he did not create the light for his brothers but rather for its own sake. He does not regret building the light and pursuing his scientific discoveries, though he wishes he could see the Golden One again.

“[I]f this should lighten the toil of men . . . then it is a great evil, for men have no cause to exist save in toiling for other men.”

Anthem, Ayn Rand

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 11:26 
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Will it outrun an SF50?


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 11:58 
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Mark,

No one actually knows: they do not have a flyable prototype.

Maybe flyable this year, maybe next.

I find the premise of this airplane to hard to believe, but I root for them, as they would be a game changer.

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 12:35 
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Username Protected wrote:
Mark,

No one actually knows: they do not have a flyable prototype.

Maybe flyable this year, maybe next.

I find the premise of this airplane to hard to believe, but I root for them, as they would be a game changer.

Frank


Actually, a lot of the concepts, manufacturing processes, weights, airfoils and other items have been resoundingly commented on few other aviation forums, with many aeronautical engineers. The end consensus has been they are a little optimistic, but not crazily so.
Where the disconnect with reality seems to be completely centered on the power plant, expected power and finally the drag comparisons.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 12:57 
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Username Protected wrote:

Actually, a lot of the concepts, manufacturing processes, weights, airfoils and other items have been resoundingly commented on few other aviation forums, with many aeronautical engineers. The end consensus has been they are a little optimistic, but not crazily so.
Where the disconnect with reality seems to be completely centered on the power plant, expected power and finally the drag comparisons.

Tim


Tim,

I don't think he will all of meet his spec's.

Here is a short list:
1. 5 passenger 62" wide cabin: I believe he will meet this spec

2. 230 KTAS cruise on 7 gph Jet A: I don't believe he will meet this spec, but I'm OK with 200 KTAS cruise on 12 gph Jet A -- can he meet that?

3. 25K cruise in a pressurized cabin: I'm OK with 20K in a pressurized cabin.

4. Deice capability: Will he meet this spec -- I suspect yes.

5. Anti - lock brakes: Will he meet this spec -- I suspect yes.

6. Project cost $130,000: Will he meet this spec -- probably not, but 200K would be OK for most, especially if he comes close on spec 2 above.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 14:56 
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If this can make 230kts at 25k on 15gph block to block Jet A and still carry a load, has some deice capability and is pressurized, 150k won't be the price point. Wouldn't need to be. They would sell a metric crap load at 500k. Lancair sold 540 of the IV/IV-P kits. Finished they were usually about 400-500k all in. That was 10 or more years ago. The IV-P is about 240ktas on 15 gph. And is way way smaller inside.
And stall speed comparison? Don't bother. We know how dismal the Lancair is in that aspect.
The power plant seems to be the scary thing. High HP auto conversions have never ended well in experimental aircraft.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 15:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
High HP auto conversions have never ended well in experimental aircraft.


This is true as far as I know. Again, the proof will be in the flyable prototype that includes performance data.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 15:52 
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The TDI seems like it would be a good engine for this application. With the bi-turbo setup it should be able to make some good hp. What could happen? A top every 1000 hours or less? :duck:


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