BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 17:54

Username Protected wrote:

My 78 P210 has a useful load of 1370 pounds. It has tip tanks - so nearly 7 hours with no reserves. I work on 5 hours with reserves, which takes us 900 nm in nil wind. This gives us 620 pounds for passengers and baggage. Our family of 5 (3 boys, 8, 6, 3 yrs old) only weighs 480 pounds at this stage - so we can still take 140 pounds of bags. The 210 has been a wonderful travelling machine for our family - very frequently we all pile into it.

However I am very mindful of how quickly we are outgrowing the 210 - 3 boys grow before your eyes. Plus our 210 doesn't have any ice protection.

I always thought a 340 or baron would be our next plane - but like Cliff I am starting to think a 414 or 421 is what we need.

To compared to my 210 - how many pounds of people/baggage can a 421 carry going 900nm with 2 hours reserve?

900nm with 2 hours reserve is pretty much going to be max endurance even for the 262g 421cs. Depending on the plane 500#-850# full fuel payload, with fixed gear on the higher end and trailing on the lower.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 18:11

Username Protected wrote:

$140k in the engines....

Not that much different than a 340/414/P Barron though. In fact, RAM lists the PBarron engine at $54k vs $59k for the 421 engine.

For some reason many people think the GTSIO 520 is crazy expensive to overhaul. It's just not true... It's between $5 & $10k more expensive to overhaul a GTSIO-520 than a non-G TSIO520.

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 18:12

Username Protected wrote:

TSIO 520 cases definitely have cracking issues. Just replaced one w/ new that had been repaired 4 times before on the current reman (Western Skyways). Cost for the new case-5,600. :sad:

Jerry - That was the issue with the cases.... replace engine 3-4 times and the cases get weak... New cases are needed at some point.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 18:30

Username Protected wrote:

Really? So very little advantage over my 210 for long trips? Does the second engine really require that much extra fuel?

Drastically different travelling experience between a 210 and 421. I loved my 210, but for travelling the 421 just crushes it.

Yes, the 421 does require a lot more fuel. My T210 was 16gph and my 421 is 40gph. It's worth it though!

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 18:33

Username Protected wrote:

Maintaining a GTSIO-520 and a TPE331 are not a lot different in price.

Don't forget the exhaust system on the twin Cessnas. By AD, it has to be inspected when the engine is overhauled, and that can be $10-20K a side depending on what is wrong. Very important, there were lots of accidents related to poor exhaust on turbocharged twin Cessnas.

Roughly speaking:

GTSIO-520 overhaul: $70K/1600 hours
Exhaust: $10K/1600 hours
Oil changes: $250/50 hours
Magneto work: $1500/500 hours
Top overhaul: $15K/1600 hours (one per TBO)
Fuel: 22 GPH block/hr, $5.50/gal

Total works out to $68/hour without fuel, $188/hour with fuel.

TPE331-10 overhaul: $225K/5000 hours
Exhaust: none
Oil changes: $400/900 hours
Fuel nozzles: $800/400 hours
HSI: $40K/5000 hours (one per TBO)
Fuel: 37 GPH block, $3.50/gal

Total works out to $55/hour without fuel, $185/hour with fuel.

Within the accuracy of this exercise, it is a tie. You can play with fuel prices, maintenance prices, etc, and make each engine come out a little ahead of the other, but at the end of the day, they just aren't that much different in $/hr.

Mike C.

This is eye opening. I never would have guessed the DOC minus airframe maintenance would compare like this.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 18:37

Username Protected wrote:

Really? So very little advantage over my 210 for long trips? Does the second engine really require that much extra fuel?

Drastically different travelling experience between a 210 and 421. I loved my 210, but for travelling the 421 just crushes it.

Yes, the 421 does require a lot more fuel. My T210 was 16gph and my 421 is 40gph. It's worth it though!

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 18:47

Username Protected wrote:

However I must admit I was also expecting a decent increase in useful load (after allowing for the additional fuel needed by the second engine)

Compared to a 210? :eek:

My 421 is a 'straight legged' C model and, with full fuel in the mains (206 gallons) I can carry 1156lbs. I figure that's good for close to 800 miles no wind.

With the left aux full (28 gallons) I have 988lbs left.

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 19:10

Username Protected wrote:

However I must admit I was also expecting a decent increase in useful load (after allowing for the additional fuel needed by the second engine)

Compared to a 210? :eek:

My 421 is a 'straight legged' C model and, with full fuel in the mains (206 gallons) I can carry 1156lbs. I figure that's good for close to 800 miles no wind.

With the left aux full (28 gallons) I have 988lbs left.

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 19:15

Username Protected wrote:

I was looking at Spencer's suggestion of 580 - 850# for 900 nm. I like your numbers much better. Do you often fill your aux tanks? - or just on long trips?

I just have one aux - 28 gallons (168lbs) on the left side for a total of 232. If you add a second aux on the right you can get 260 or so. There are also some combinations that can get you up to 280 gallons and let you go a long way!

My aux generally stays empty unless I need the distance. Tomorrow, for example, 6 of us are going to Clemson and I need the passenger weight. Unfortunately, it probably means a fuel stop on the way home (fighting winds) since I won't be able to fill the aux, but that's OK.

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 20:45

Username Protected wrote:

Really? So very little advantage over my 210 for long trips? Does the second engine really require that much extra fuel?

One of the few advantages of the higher fuel burn in a twin is the fact that you can trade a relatively small amount of range or endurance for a large increase in payload.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 22:05

Lance, great point. Looking at moving up like a lot of others. I did catch something new when looking at 421's that I have never considered - MZFW. Would MZFW be limiting when trading off fuel for payload because you can't go past MZFW? Thx, Bob...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 22:14

Username Protected wrote:

Lance, great point. Looking at moving up like a lot of others. I did catch something new when looking at 421's that I have never considered - MZFW. Would MZFW be limiting when trading off fuel for payload because you can't go past MZFW? Thx, Bob...

Yes, it would be. I have it on my plane too.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 22:15

Username Protected wrote:

Would MZFW be limiting when trading off fuel for payload because you can't go past MZFW?

1976 421C POH lists MZFW as 6733 lbs.

Empty weights of straight leg 421C are around 5100 pounds.

Leaves 1633 lbs cabin load.

Seems like enough.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 22:27

I'm early in the search for a 421, but I'm finding most empty weights in the 5,350 - 5,450 range. Giving 1,283 - 1,383 payload. With my bunch I need 1,200 and that's why I'm zeroing in on the 421. I agree the POH is 5,100 but maybe that was a barebones basic copy (without Radar, AC, upgraded interior, etc.).

Either way we are in agreement, a 421 will work for my mission.

Great thread for a newly searching 421 enthusiast. Thx, Bob...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Nov 2015, 22:33

Keeping with the 340 vs 414 vs 421 title, I notice a lot have Factory Air and Cessna 800B autopilots. I'm used to electric air (lighter, better?) and a King KFC200.

How about input on pros/cons on Factory Air and Cessna 800B A/P's?

My initial research shows Factory Air may be getting skinny on parts availability and not as reliable. About $20K for Keith including labor to replace.

And, the Cessna 800B is also having fewer shops and fewer parts available. But, I've read that about my KFC-200 and I've had no problem with service or parts.

All of this is from the internet, not from hands on knowledgeable pilots. Need some real input from you with experience?

Thx, Bob...

Cessna 340 vs 414 vs the 421