John

respectfully I note that much of these Billionaires wealth is not held in CASH.
It is held in Stock or Real Estate meaning the majority of the wealth is not liquid. I suppose the mention of liquidity is not meaningful considering we are thinking about billionaires and their ability to generate CASH and get some Top Ramen.

sorry I'm not sure why I even started this post.

OH I just remembered. normal people don't need a Billion dollars to have a SANE life!
good luck to the Neurotic in our society.

Eric

Very well said!

So let me get this straight. You are perfectly fine with politicians and billionaires being allowed to commit black-letter crimes for which you would be thrown in jail and financially destroyed? You live in a crazy place man.

I agree w/ JGG that if we don't solve this it will bring down the republic and I believe it will do it within most of our lifetimes. So you SHOULD care. Recognizing the problem is the first step in fixing it. As a student of history you may decide that the failure is inevitable as every empire has followed the same arc. But that shouldn't stop us from trying. Also, there are different ways to pass the torch and I want us to choose a more graceful path like the Dutch and English vs a more violent one like Rome or the Austro-Hungarians.

It really isn't that hard to fix the worst of the abuses. Reform the Fed, radically cut the tax code as I talked about earlier, and finally (and most importantly) make everyone play by the rules (you know, that vaunted "rule of law" that we talk about but do not have).

Hmm. Today in my Inbox from Ray Dalio:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/rising-r ... ray-dalio/

Brian, I recently checked my IRS online account and there was also a message that they had not received my 2020 tax return.

However, several months ago I received a notice that I had made a mistake on my 2020 tax return (I didn't, but that's another story). It showed my reported income amounts for 2020, so obviously they did receive and process my tax return.

Some big glitch going on at the IRS.

Gentlemen,

Perhaps CW and I need to see the same shrink. I apologize for the rant.

"Nothing personal" would be trite.

I was out of line.

Jg

So let me get this straight. You are perfectly fine with politicians and billionaires being allowed to commit black-letter crimes for which you would be thrown in jail and financially destroyed? You live in a crazy place man.

I agree w/ JGG that if we don't solve this it will bring down the republic and I believe it will do it within most of our lifetimes. So you SHOULD care. Recognizing the problem is the first step in fixing it. As a student of history you may decide that the failure is inevitable as every empire has followed the same arc. But that shouldn't stop us from trying. Also, there are different ways to pass the torch and I want us to choose a more graceful path like the Dutch and English vs a more violent one like Rome or the Austro-Hungarians.

It really isn't that hard to fix the worst of the abuses. Reform the Fed, radically cut the tax code as I talked about earlier, and finally (and most importantly) make everyone play by the rules (you know, that vaunted "rule of law" that we talk about but do not have).

John,

I thought perhaps you were referring to me in your last post, as I've been the principle defender of wealth in this thread. While we clearly don't agree on this topic my reaction was that I must have given offense for which I felt badly. Thus my comment at the end of my previous post.

I think those of us who post here regularly know what to expect from each other. And that even when we don't agree, or perhaps go further than we'd like to in retrospect, or perhaps have even created hurt or offense inadvertently, that we will be afforded some measure of grace as we will also afford.

You are a strong willed, opinionated and wise man. Those are things all of us here who "know" you appreciate. Your passion is never anything to apologize for and I think we all understand that it isn't "personal".

One of the hardest things to do is to have a polite, thoughtful, exchange in writing with the kind of immediacy that forums like this provide. I heard or read recently the quote "if I had longer I'd have written a shorter letter" which is attributed to Samuel Clemens, Blaise Pascal and others. I think that's a challenge for all of us here.

If I've offended you in any way I hope you will not doubt the sincerity of my regret.

One more thought on our recent exchanges here that have taken us down a rabbit hole and away from Chip's original intent in this thread. And that is that disagreement is no reason not to be friends, even when those disagreements are strongly held.

Many years ago I became close friends with an African American gentlemen from the far side of the world from me. We were lucky enough to sit next to each other during our first year in the House of Representatives. Opio Toure was as liberal as anyone in the House and I was as conservative. He a democrat and me a republican. Our lives and experience bore little resemblance to each other's.

One day found us debating the death penalty passionately across our desk. I think many observers found it amusing. I was strongly in support and Opio was just as adamantly opposed. I cannot tell you how the vote went.

But I can tell you my reaction when someone came up to me later and asked "Did you know that Opio's father and brother were both murdered?" I was stunned. And a bit sick to my stomach. And unbelievably impressed with my friend. He was gracious in accepting my apology. And my knew knowledge led to a deeper understanding and deeper friendship. I learned that it's important to know where our competitor in the world of ideas is coming from. And it's important to always respect the other's opinion because we can't always know how it was formed.

When I left the House Opio asked if he could take the welfare reform bill I'd been working on for several years and get it passed. He wanted to make only two small changes. I was glad for him to do it and knew that in a legislature full of democrats he had a much better chance than I'd ever had. And he did it! However, he still needed my help because the governor, a very fine man of unimpeachable honor and integrity was going to veto the bill. Because of where it came from. But, once I made him aware of it's true nature it was signed with alacrity. And tens of thousands of lives were able to be improved.

Friendship doesn't always mean agreement. Opio and I agreed on almost nothing. But our goodwill and mutual respect kept us trying until we did something fine. I try to remember that lesson whenever I find a worthy person with whom I have an honest difference of opinion. Which sometimes happens even here.

So let me get this straight. You are perfectly fine with politicians and billionaires being allowed to commit black-letter crimes for which you would be thrown in jail and financially destroyed? You live in a crazy place man.

I agree w/ JGG that if we don't solve this it will bring down the republic and I believe it will do it within most of our lifetimes. So you SHOULD care. Recognizing the problem is the first step in fixing it. As a student of history you may decide that the failure is inevitable as every empire has followed the same arc. But that shouldn't stop us from trying. Also, there are different ways to pass the torch and I want us to choose a more graceful path like the Dutch and English vs a more violent one like Rome or the Austro-Hungarians.

It really isn't that hard to fix the worst of the abuses. Reform the Fed, radically cut the tax code as I talked about earlier, and finally (and most importantly) make everyone play by the rules (you know, that vaunted "rule of law" that we talk about but do not have).[/quote]

Chris,

I'm very familiar with rhetoric and many of the sleights of hand that can be played in its exercise. Your attempt to mischaracterize what I've said is though a bit overdone. I neither said, nor implied, that I'm fine with corruption or that I'm prepared to tolerate criminal behavior.

I'm not. In fact, if you knew anything of my history you'd have a difficult time keeping a straight face while so alleging.

What I've tried to say is that wealth, per se, isn't immoral or corrupt. That it can be, often is and that it has always been thus has been my point throughout. I don't think capital punishment is appropriate for ordinary theft and I don't think arbitrary confiscation of wealth for everyone who achieves it at any given level, because some abuse their power created by their wealth, is appropriate either. Integral to my position is that we should deal with the miscreants when they arise but not assume that everyone who reaches a certain level of wealth is by definition one. That sort of thinking is identical to that which puts people of any group into a discriminated class merely because of their membership. It is identical to the thought processes that result in racism, homophobia, religious intolerance and other unfortunate consequences of careless thinking.

Just as you, and others, are concerned that the evil accumulators of excess wealth (by your definition) are the ruination of our society, I'm concerned that the arbitrary imposition of limits on ambition and accumulation will be the ruination of our society. I think it's clear that America is exceptional in many ways including economic and political. Part of that exceptionalism is rooted in the idea, and practice, that any person is free to go as far as their wits and luck will take them. Proposing to limit that ability, in my opinion, damages the wealthy less than anyone else. Because it is the dream, and the free pursuit of the dream, that fuels this American exceptionalism and inspires it anew in every generation.

So, on the contrary, let's punish the crime committed and the criminals. But let's not go so far as to say that because some use a getaway car in their crimes that no one should be allowed a car.

I believe that finding equity in dealing with misbehavior, which perhaps we can agree on is essentially the violation of societal norms, is a more appropriate and likely workable solution to the problems you and I are both concerned about, than punishing the innocent. Let me say in closing that I believe I've struck a nerve of frustration and possibly anger with the expression of my views. I certainly don't intend to give offense but I can't not express my opinion, which is the free right of all of us, merely to avoid another's frustration that I don't share their weltanschauung. I've tried to be polite and if I've given real or imagined offense to anyone I regret that. I do think that this issue is important and that how it is resolved ultimately will have a great deal to do with how the future of our country turns out.[/quote]

---------------------------------------

Tony

You have a great perspective and it’s clear your a real entrepreneur. I admire you and your intellect. When people benefit from the FREE WILL granted by the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. The ability to engage in commerce is not inhibited by communists, marxists, or socialists but is instead enthralled by citizen freedom to engage in business. I try not to use fancy words but you are probably the best of the best at this on BT IMHO.

Of course we live in a very different time than when rich Industrialists were first created here in the good old USA. But I share and enjoy your enthusiasm.

However, the massive accumulation of wealth by these Billionaires around the globe has created a environment of corruption in the media and politicians. You know like they did when just 4,000 millionaires had 20% of the wealth in USA in 1890’s…I hesitate with caution bringing up the Federal Reserve, World Monetary Fund, or the World Economic Forums “goals” for the new world order. Dammit I’ve already been censored twice by BT and here I go again. I really should just be talking about flying. I’m sorry everyone.

Media: No need to give a example as it is AD-Obvious and similarly we all understand the influence this has on society at large. Major negative factor capability they possess BUT I am not thinking anyone’s wealth should be taken away. But we should be aware of what their wealth is doing to us.

Politician Corruption: here is one example history should teach us. “This is a government of the people, by the people and for the people no longer,” former president Rutherford B. Hayes wrote in his diary in 1886. “It is a government by the corporations, of the corporations and for the corporations.”

It used to be railroads and now it is Information Technology like Google or Facebook. y’all know the recent news stories of their conflagrance. Hey I just invented a new word! The unfortunate position we are in today is that unlike the gilded age of reporters exposing corruption, the reporters (media) public a biased view instead of being totally objective and in the middle meaning not taking one side or the other BUT more importantly considering BOTH views as being worth an argument.

Long story short Tony, the Wealthy are not helping the middle in our society. They think big (which is cool) but they should think (I believe it is their responsibility) more in between big and small. The middle class is the only only only only way we succeed in here in America.

Thank you again Tony for all your insight you provide and enjoy all BT communique.

Again sorry for the politics being on BT but in a way it is a sign of the times. I gotta stop and go read “Engine Talk”.

Eric

PS- sorry I don't know how to get past this 2 post thing so BT forces me to eliminate a quote. I'm sure I'm doing it all wrong. need some flight instruction.

At this point, this thread needs to be retitled..."The BeechTalk Bar conversation"

Honestly, it's refreshing that we can go back and forth, about a reasonably contentious subject, without just turning into a "F you"..."no F you" that is the prevailing trend among the few still-active forums.

I don't know about the rest of you lot, but I love this bar.

Eric,

I appreciate your perspective. And, as I've said, I don't think we don' have a problem (there's a double negative for you!).

You brought up the gilded age which is interesting. The wealthy in that period were as rapacious as any in history. It was as it closed that Upton Sinclair wrote "The Jungle" in 1905. This period was also the period of "yellow journalism" in which the political manipulations by the press barons of the age would make today's media blush in embarrassment. It was also a period of great poverty, and massive human suffering, in the United States, as millions crowded into squalor in urban slums and suffered unimaginably on the frontiers. There is no social ill I can think of that exists today which wasn't an order of magnitude worse then than now.

The wealthy then had, in many ways, more power. Just read about Vanderbilt's political manipulations in those days. Or Jay Gould, Morgan, Rockefeller, Carnegie et all. Yes, they endowed libraries, universities, soup kitchens, medical care and other social goods - perhaps in penance, perhaps in a sense of guilt that seems to be pervasive among the economically more fortunate - but they were as dominant in their time as the moguls of today are in ours.

But I mention that snippet of period history only as an example because you brought it up. I could easily walk us through the 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th and now 21st century to show the same. What is also true of those hundreds of years is that there has been continual progress, in human terms, for all other classes of people. And, our country, troubled and challenged to live up to its ideals as it has been, perseveres despite those in every age, including our own, who cry out that it will not.

Having said that, I also understand that that progress is not consistent over time as it ebbs and flows. As we look at our own times there are certain obvious inequalities but my point is that they are no less fair or unfair as compared to others. And I reject the idea that life is ever, or should be fair. I think it's an impossible concept. And I don't think that just because things were disparate in the past that that should be our ideal. Nor do I think that we should not be striving to better everyone's condition at all times in all times.

One could look, in detail, at history and give up. One could just as easily look at current circumstances and give up. I agree with gilded age playwright George Bernard Shaw who said “There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?” So, I am in agreement as to ends with many here who seek to end the problems of our modern society. I am not in agreement as to means.

Capitalism works but can be extremely vicious in its pure form. The extent that we choose to tame it is where the inequities really show up.

As was said earlier privatizing profits and socializing losses is a great way to break a Capitalistic system.

Our biggest failure of the last 20 yrs was "too big to fail". We have some market segments that got out of control and should have failed and gone through bankruptcy. Harsh yes but, lessons would have been learned from the C suites to the shareholders.

Winston Churchill once said, “The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.”

Tony

Thank you for opining on this interesting subject of the human condition both past and present here in America. I like to learn how the conditions of people during the early 1900’s compare to today 2022. It encompasses 3 generations I personally can relate to in my family tree. Seemingly we have it much better today when you think as you describe “millions crowded in squalor in urban slums”. Somewhat similarly, that sounds just like LA. I just drove last week through it all visiting suppliers from Lynwood to Glendale. It was like driving through a 3rd world country. Well not like Tangier, Morocco 3rd world but less than what you and I would think a peaceful community. The middle class were not present nor the rich. Not good progress IMHO.

With real sincerity I honestly question the direction our country is heading. While progress may “Ebb and Flow” towards good and bad, I think the concerns we all face today are equally (not less) challenging as those during the “Turn of the Century” 1900. While our inequalities may be fair or unfair, many of the inequalities whether today or in 1900 are moral lessons not learned from the past.

Drug addiction, 1 parent families, violence in the streets, jails being emptied, criminals on the loose, suicide, economic lockdowns, anti-police fervor, and massive dependence on government aid doesn’t help the country much long term. It is happening all over the country. I did not see the severity of these issues when I grew up in the 1980’s Los Angeles. Perhaps it all was there or it was relative and the 24 hr. News cycle and Social Media is making it appear worse than it is. I don’t know but it just seems worse, kinda like the problems of the early 1900’s.

I mentioned earlier what President Hayes wrote in 1886 and the power of the corporations not being “for the people”. The issues seem to be getting worse, and I choose to not accept this version of “continual progress”.

Hopefully we all will “persevere” as you say. Again thank you for your incite and wisdom.

Eric

You need to wait for the fire to burn out. That’s the only way it’s going to change.