How about this plane I saw a few days ago pushing 20-30,000 pounds of thrust with after burner in level flight going under 100 knots. I live in work by the Hill Air Force Base, so I see these F35’s doing their demo routine quite a bit. This is demoing how slow the plane can fly in level flight.

You have probably seen that demo routine if you have gone to an Air Force airshow. That is flying way behind the power curve.

If you only saw that aircraft ground track, you would have no idea how that was happening.

The other thing I should mention, I haven’t looked at the ground track, but if you did rotate at 80 kn, it seems a little slow. Vr in the Meridian is at least 85 kn.

One of my mentors, Bud Ridgley was an excellent stick and rudder pilot, one of the old guys who probably taught himself to fly by a solo first flight and then taught himself to land by skimming a field until he was comfortable touching down.

He didn’t, I’m joking… but he was that kind of old school, do what works best, pilot.

Mr. Bud had a very unique take-off procedure, it wasn’t by the book, but his logic was compelling, he would accelerate down the runway, lift the aircraft up just a few feet, still in ground effect, clean it up, and then build airspeed like crazy… at the end of the runway he’d pull up and with all that speed and soar like an Eagle.

I share this for two reasons and one is to change the subject.

Liftoff was about 93 KIAS when accounting for the ground speed (80 knots), the wind speed (15 knots down the runway) and the altitude (about 1000 MSL).

A PA-46 at 93 knots is not behind the power curve.

Then the plane stopped climbing and slowed down. The only way you can fly this profile is to lose almost all of your thrust shortly after liftoff.

If you disagree, please try it. You will not succeed.

You do what you have to keep your purity of thought on this matter, but that plane did not maintain anywhere near takeoff thrust during this accident. That is basic physics.

Mike C.

Chuck cant have any SETP crashes that are the planes fault as it will mess up his narrative he is always pushing about how safe the SETP's are. Haha.

Been a few SETP issues lately with that and the PC-12. Fact is all plane models crash.

There are plenty of light jet issues as well. But overall Jets have higher safety record than SETP or any plane with a prop. Thats a fact.

So if you can afford a jet there is no reason to be flying a SETP. Can you fly one safely, yes. But a jet is safer.

Mike

Come on Mike...you are just BEGGING for the M500 on ice pic again. LMAO.

Liftoff was about 93 KIAS when accounting for the ground speed (80 knots), the wind speed (15 knots down the runway) and the altitude (about 1000 MSL).

A PA-46 at 93 knots is not behind the power curve.

Then the plane stopped climbing and slowed down. The only way you can fly this profile is to lose almost all of your thrust shortly after liftoff.

If you disagree, please try it. You will not succeed.

You do what you have to keep your purity of thought on this matter, but that plane did not maintain anywhere near takeoff thrust during this accident. That is basic physics.

Mike C.

It would, but the lane was well past stall at liftoff. 93 KIAS.


Liftoff speed isn't in a deep stall. Nobody would set it that way. So we know the plane wasn't in a stall, deep or otherwise, after liftoff.

The numbers I see online for Vr was about 85 KIAS, so they were past that speed.

The lack of acceleration ad climb then comes from lack of thrust. The induced drag of stall wasn't there.


At 93 KIAS, the plane would zoom climb under those conditions.


Try to duplicate the accident profile without reducing thrust. You will not be able to do it. The plane had a normal takeoff acceleration, rotated past Vr, and then lost speed and could not climb. That is loss of thrust, not induced drag given the initial speed.

Mike C.

You left out the question of departure stall, the theoretical point of my post.

He would zoom climb, yes, but with nose up control forces an eventual stall would ensue.

Why do we practice departure stalls if it can’t happen?

Here is a departure stall in a Meridian, that lifted off in the low 80’s, got behind the power curve and fortunately bellied in off the side of the runway. The plane was a little over gross weight with 6 onboard, but I have it on pretty good authority the plane will fly, well over gross. Just not when you pull it off behind the power curve. The track on this aircraft, which was making full power would look like the accident aircraft referenced. Didn’t climb and didn’t accelerate. Engine pushing out normal power.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/155653

Just out of maintenance, if there was something wrong with the trim, and he didn’t catch it, such as a trim rolled all the way up, as soon as he rotated, he would be handed a very nose up aircraft. I am not a slight guy and can push quite a few big wheels on a bench press, but in my M600, if I’m not trimmed for an aft CG, it can take a pretty hefty push, especially at full power to keep the nose down. Doing that with one hand is even more challenging, while trying to either manually or electrically trim the nose down. Inhad heard the nose of this plane seemed high. This pilot was a little light in the experience bucket, and may not have fully realized what was going on if that happened. Whether the NTSB would find that?? The trim system did not seem to be connected to the control surfaces looking at the accident photos.

It didn’t work!

The plane was not stalled at liftoff.

It stalled at the end of the flight before impacting the ground, but that was after all the energy was gone. The energy was gone because there was not enough thrust.


He would have gained far more altitude.


They happen if people climb at too high an attitude. He wasn't at that attitude on liftoff.

Mike C.

It would have lifted off before 93 KIAS if the trim was set as you surmise. He would have had to push the yoke forward to hold it on the ground to reach that speed with a high nose up trim setting. Being on the ground doesn't negate the impact of the trim tab on the elevator.

Also, the trim setting would leave evidence in the crash, namely the trim jack screw position.

You can't duplicate this flight path with takeoff power throughout. You just can't, the physics don't work out.

Mike C.

The report says the pilot reduce the power during the event.


You missed this statement:

"The pilot reduced the throttle setting to lower the airplane’s nose"

Not a smart move. Also, over gross, liftoff early, neither of which apply to the KOJC accident.

Mike C.