So..you run your engines properly and they last much longer. Someone else doesn't and it's factored into the price you pay Williams.
Someone else doesn't property care for them, isn't careful about FOD, etc. and the good folks have that factored into the repair/replacement rate. Plus Williams has the money in advance and if they don't perform in the future, you have to try to get it.
What happened to paying for services when proper services were rendered?

BTW, a bit of thread drift, I'm getting more and more demands for payment of services in advance of performance.
My Doc's office is the latest. Urologist. Sends a robocall before the appointment warning me what the payment will be and it will have to be paid at the visit. When checking in, they want my credit card. Sorry, no way. I don't know what will be done and whether I'll be satisfied with the service. It's a very disturbing trend and very frustrating to see folks accept this. All folks want auto pay. Have you every tried to get a payment back after it's incorrectly charged? They usually offer a future credit rather than returning your money. Hint, some may not have it to give back.

Started a thread about engine programs viewtopic.php?f=49&t=165478&view=unread#unread

Edit - Moved to the engine program thread.

Super idea!

Same way it does now, by the hour.

Williams would rather have more engines churning hours than miss an airframe design win.

And Williams enforces a minimum per year, so that covers low duty users.


No, they wouldn't, they are paying for each hour of use.


They do, its called leasing. They charge per month and then a mileage fee on top of that.


If so, they already do under current terms. Most of the money is in the programs, not in the OEM invoice.

Mike C.

Ultimately, you do. You need to buy twice as many cars per unit time if they last the same miles. So yes, you are paying double for using double the miles.


With Williams, you get two choices:

A. On program, favors Williams

B. Off program, hugely favors Williams


Frax and "jet card" style operators are basically that.

Mike C.

Under current terms, Williams can change the rate on Jan 1 to any amount.

You know the rate before signing for at most 1 year in advance, the other 4+ years in the contract are totally unknown.

Williams can, if they so choose, raise the rates to $10,000 an hour.

Here's a real stinker, if the program lapses on the engine, Williams will require payment from ZERO hours to present to restart. All that equity in the program was lost.


Not with Williams. They are sole source for major engine events.

We are getting to the point that early 525 series are not worth what the owners have paid in engine programs. The planes are becoming disposable because the engines are not worth overhauling.

Mike C.

"almost the same thing as is already happening" is not really already happening.
Williams and the plane manufacturer get a lump sum up front when the plane is purchased.
Then the owner can decide to participate or not participate in the programs. If he or she does, then they make variable payments based on hours. If not, no variable payments.

In the case where Williams just "leases" the engine there is no lump sum up front. What if the owner only flies the plane sporadically? How does Williams recover its costs?

So how does this model work if one owner flies 50 hours a year, the another owner flies 150 hours a year and number three flies 300 hours per year?

You have three owners with an identical asset, who are paying differential expenses to the manufacturer based solely on their usage. This makes no sense. Usage based fees make sense when the provider of the good or service incurs expense based on usage. Williams incurs no incremental expense based upon the owners' usage of the engine. Williams has no control over whether the owner flies the thing every day or lets it sit in the hangar.

JSSI offers coverage on FJ44, do you know what their rates are like? They do cover MPIs etc. which I guess Williams has to do.

https://www.jetsupport.com/results?airc ... &make=8568

Andrew

Much different from a vehicle lease. Two stark differences... 1) The title to the vehicle does not go to the lessee. The title remains with the lessor. 2) In the case of the jet engines, you guys are talking about leasing the power plant separately from the rest of the plane.

In a car lease, are you leasing the motor? In the case of the planes, who retains title to the aircraft? Who retains title to the engines?

Finally, car manufacturers started leasing cars to increase the velocity of their inventory. It enables people to rent cars that in some, but not all instances, cannot afford. Also provides for easier, albeit costly, trade up. Not sure that transferring engines to a rental model will increase velocity (sales) of engines or planes.

Look I get it that folks are unhappy with being over a barrel on the programs. Not sure that changing the model will change the ability of engine manufacturers to extract rents, not rents in a leasing sense, but in an economic advantage sense. In some ways, it may increase the economic rents extracted by the engine manufacturers.

OK I am willing to learn.. are you saying that in every instance with a Williams engine, that they are the only source for overhaul & major repair? Even when off warranty?

I like the way Mike uses my jet thread to talk about engine programs and uses my engine program thread to trash me.

Sorry Chip, I'm guilty too, but his personal attacks on you are getting old. He's better than that and I don't get where its coming from.
I don't see your posts as self promotion, and they are very useful to us guys sitting on the turbine sidelines.

Yes. Williams is the only approved maintenance facility to overhaul and repair their engines. They do not provide maintenance data to any other shop. Williams calls the OH a Major Periodic Inspection that makes it mandatory for Part 91.