BeechTalk - BT - Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 12:47

Username Protected wrote:

JC gets the $2MM back when he sells it so that doesn't count.

$2M tied up is $100K/year cost of money, at least.

That is ~30,000 gallons of fuel per year.

That likely covers the extra fuel a jet would burn doing his missions.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 12:49

Thinking about it more. I remember hearing JC say he'd make money on his PC-12. If he makes 100k/yr it mitigates this argument completely.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 13:04

Username Protected wrote:

Not sure I get where the $2MM comes from? What airplane are you comparing it too?

Beech Premier to PC-12/47. Used asking prices on controller.com.

Quote:

So if you flew a PC-12 30 hours/month and burned an average of 65GPH but added-in the equivalent cap-cost fuel of 83 GPH (30,000/12months=2500/30hours=83) you could look at the PC-12 as burning 148GPH compared to a plane costing $2mm less.

But you are going slower in the PC-12, so it isn't hour for hour, it is mile for mile.

The Premier burns ~130 GPH block which is double PC-12, but it goes 440 knots versus 270. Add in headwind, which is most of your flying, the advantage grows for the faster airplane.

At a certain headwind, the Premier and PC-12 have the same specific range. This is about 70 knots or so. It depends on how the winds change with altitude. The winds can be such the jet suffers less wind at the higher altitude.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 14:03

I'm kind of with Don. And to borrow Jason Crandalls words: "with the training requirements for jets, it makes it the slowest plane I've ever owned". He's got a good point. The Premier ride I took, Bob had to do his initial TR for 18 days at FlightSafety. 18! That means before you've even sat in the thing you're 180hrs behind anyone else. No way you can zoom that back in a year and come out ahead of a turboprop. Probably can't zoom that back in it's lifetime even, with the recurring requirements.

Whenever this subject comes up everyone tries to shame you into saying training time doesn't count, it's something you should embrace, makes you a better pilot, it's professional, yada, yada. Sure, I agree. But it doesn't take away the fact that that you just lost two weeks of your time. Dunno about you, but I don't have 18 days in a year to be away from business and family.

Considering all these things, training requirements etc, the fastest plane on the planet is still this thing:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 14:09

Username Protected wrote:

And the roughly $2M more you paid for it buys a lot of fuel.

But as the jets pass you, you can always feel good about being cheaper.

Mike C.

Contradiction? Which is it?

A Premier would require 2 fuel stops.

9 hours?? Dude I have flown some extremely long distances and never had a 9 hour day much less on a 1300NM trip. Your math is way off. Pilatus has 6.5 endurance. I've done Atlanta to Alaska in less than 8 hours with the fuel stop.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 14:10

Username Protected wrote:

I'm kind of with Don. And to borrow Jason Crandalls words: "with the training requirements for jets, it makes it the slowest plane I've ever owned". He's got a good point. The Premier ride I took, Bob had to do his initial TR for 18 days at FlightSafety. 18! That means before you've even sat in the thing you're 180hrs behind anyone else. No way you can zoom that back in a year and come out ahead of a turboprop. Probably can't zoom that back in it's lifetime even, with the recurring requirements.

Whenever this subject comes up everyone tries to shame you into saying training time doesn't count, it's something you should embrace, makes you a better pilot, it's professional, yada, yada. Sure, I agree. But it doesn't take away the fact that that you just lost two weeks of your time. Dunno about you, but I don't have 18 days in a year to be away from business and family.

Considering all these things, training requirements etc, the fastest plane on the planet is still the Avanti!

King Air 350 Initial is 17 days.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 14:13

Username Protected wrote:

$2M tied up is $100K/year cost of money, at least.

That is ~30,000 gallons of fuel per year.

That likely covers the extra fuel a jet would burn doing his missions.

Mike C.

You're omitting the depreciation of the jet. I've had my PC12 over 5 years now and put 1800 hours on it and I could sell it for what I bought it for.

Take any other brand and you're looking at a minimum of $1K an hour airframe depreciation. Conservative jets depreciate $250K a year and obviously that's $1000K an hour if you're flying 250 hours a year which is a lot. Most jet's depreciate $250K a quarter. The depreciation is massive. Then add on top the fuel cost.

I don't really care about the cost to run the jet. I'm just fixing you're numbers since you've never owned a jet or a Pilatus.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 14:14

Username Protected wrote:

King Air 350 Initial is 17 days.

Don't understand why.

Piaggio Avanti initial is 6 days. Turbo Commander initial is 4 days.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 14:15

Username Protected wrote:

$2M tied up is $100K/year cost of money, at least.

Mike C.

You paying taxes on the $100K a year? If so it's really $67K.

The PIlatus runs on 60 Cent Dollars. The Dividends get taxed 43%.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 14:15

Username Protected wrote:

King Air 350 Initial is 17 days.

Don't understand why.

Piaggio Avanti initial is 6 days. Turbo Commander initial is 4 days.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 14:17

Username Protected wrote:

King Air 350 Initial is 17 days.

That's crazy.

My Pilatus salesman just finished PC24 initial training..... 3 weeks in Dallas. ugh

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 14:32

Username Protected wrote:

A Premier would require 2 fuel stops.

Nope, easily does it in one.

Quote:

I have flown some extremely long distances and never had a 9 hour day much less on a 1300NM trip.

1770 nm trip into 50 knot headwind.

Quote:

Pilatus has 6.5 endurance.

PC-12 won't do that trip non stop if it takes a 441 more than 7 hours. 441 is 40 knots faster than a PC-12.

Quote:

I've done Atlanta to Alaska in less than 8 hours with the fuel stop.

KPDK to PAKT (closest AK airport) is 2341 nm. Assuming 7.5 hours of flight time, that is 312 knots block speed in a direction with a headwind almost all the time. You could spend the rest of your life waiting for a day you could do it in 8 hours in a PC-12.

You aren't doing any math. Numbers trump boasting.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 14:47

Username Protected wrote:

A Premier would require 2 fuel stops.

Nope, easily does it in one.

Quote:

I have flown some extremely long distances and never had a 9 hour day much less on a 1300NM trip.

1770 nm trip into 50 knot headwind.

Quote:

Pilatus has 6.5 endurance.

PC-12 won't do that trip non stop if it takes a 441 more than 7 hours. 441 is 40 knots faster than a PC-12.

Quote:

I've done Atlanta to Alaska in less than 8 hours with the fuel stop.

KPDK to PAKT (closest AK airport) is 2341 nm. Assuming 7.5 hours of flight time, that is 312 knots block speed in a direction with a headwind almost all the time.

You aren't doing any math. Numbers trump boasting.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 14:57

Username Protected wrote:

King Air 350 Initial is 17 days.

Don't understand why.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jun 2018, 15:04

How many PAX in the Premier with full tanks?