26 Dec 2025, 03:38 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 06 Dec 2016, 14:00 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 14668 Post Likes: +12455 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Oh I have been flying. Went to mammoth Mtn yesterday to ski. Got diverted from Scottsdale to Deer Valley due to a disabled AC on runway on return flight. . Flying the rocker to Spokane this weekend. Looking for a copilot. All my BTers talk a good SIC game but never deliver.
I will come up with some video soon. [youtube]https://youtu.be/NHRxTaTlZ1s[/youtube] skiing is good at KMMH
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 06 Dec 2016, 14:01 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 14668 Post Likes: +12455 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Hey Mark,
Great thread. Good on you for admitting mistakes (that we have all made!) and helping us all learn from them.
One system that we use at my company as a "cleared to land" reminder is to move the Seatbelt Sign from AUTO (where it normally lives) to ON whenever we get the clearance. It has no effect on the signs themselves as they come on at 10,000 MSL in the descent in AUTO but its a great way to acknowledge the cleared to land call inside the cockpit. We also acknowledge the clearance when the EGPWS makes its "500" call. PM looks up at the Seatbelt sign and calls "Stable, Cleared to Land 18R". The PF calls "Landing". Not sure if there is a switch in the CII that could serve the same purpose but thought I'd mention it. Ive also heard of people turning their Landing Lts from Pulse to Steady when the receive the clearance to land.
just my 2c. Great thread.
Good thoughts. I will incorporate. 
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 24 Dec 2016, 06:03 |
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Joined: 06/09/09 Posts: 4438 Post Likes: +3306
Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
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Nicely done Mark. Why did you choose the ILS & circle over the RNAV direct to 20R? Looks like the minimums are close to the same for each. Do you find those CL lights distracting? They look really bright in the video.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 24 Dec 2016, 07:29 |
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Joined: 05/17/15 Posts: 147 Post Likes: +75
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Mark, Just curious; do you not keep the YD engaged during the circle? You mentioned "staying coordinated" in one of the video captions. I've always kept my feet flat on the floor in a jet until on final and then disconnect the YD on short final (unless I need the rudder earlier for wind correction.)
I've only flown one type of Citation and just wonder what the different training recommendations are for similar rigs.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 24 Dec 2016, 08:52 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 14668 Post Likes: +12455 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Nicely done Mark. Why did you choose the ILS & circle over the RNAV direct to 20R? Looks like the minimums are close to the same for each. Do you find those CL lights distracting? They look really bright in the video. We requested the LPV to 20R but were denied due to KORD (O'Hare) traffic. I did not find the lights distracting. In fact it was hard to see them until we made the turn. Had to study the airport layout so we knew exactly what we were looking for and how we would approach it. The problem is you mess it up (too high, too tight) etc you can biff it trying to save it. You also really have to know the missed approach. Pop quiz...what would be the missed? The miss for 10 or the miss for 20R and when does it become one and not the other?
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
Last edited on 24 Dec 2016, 19:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 24 Dec 2016, 08:54 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 14668 Post Likes: +12455 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Mark, Just curious; do you not keep the YD engaged during the circle? You mentioned "staying coordinated" in one of the video captions. I've always kept my feet flat on the floor in a jet until on final and then disconnect the YD on short final (unless I need the rudder earlier for wind correction.)
I've only flown one type of Citation and just wonder what the different training recommendations are for similar rigs. That's just a bad habit on my part. Once I commit to visual I like to "deautomate". Your point is excellent and I should rethink my strategy/technique.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 24 Dec 2016, 09:24 |
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Joined: 06/09/09 Posts: 4438 Post Likes: +3306
Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
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Username Protected wrote: Nicely done Mark. Why did you choose the ILS & circle over the RNAV direct to 20R? Looks like the minimums are close to the same for each. Do you find those CL lights distracting? They look really bright in the video. We requested the LPV to 20R but were denied due to KORD (O'Hare) traffic. I did not find the lights distracting. In fact it was hard to seem them until we made the turn. Had to study the airport layout so we knew exactly what we were looking for and how we would approach it. The problem is you mess it up (too high, too tight) etc you can biff it trying to save it. You also really have to know the missed approach. Pop quiz...what would be the missed? The miss for 10 or the miss for 20R and when does it become one and not the other?
Unless I get a vector and alt from tower I would climb to 2600' while I went direct JOT, which is listed as the missed fix for both approaches.
I read some guidance that says climb to MSA above the airport. In that situation I would much prefer to be wings level.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 24 Dec 2016, 09:25 |
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Joined: 02/22/12 Posts: 450 Post Likes: +219 Location: KBOW, FL
Aircraft: LA4-200,B737, WC-130
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Username Protected wrote: Most new airliners have INS and GPS. Hard to get lost these days but people still do it!
Even older airliners incorporate GPS. In most installations I've seen, the INS(S) provide a baseline position (and attitude reference for the ADI). Since the INS position solution will drift with time, the GPS provides a "correction" to the original solution. This updated position is known as the FMS position. Some airplanes use VOR/DME and DME/DME to augment the FMS position when GPS becomes inop.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 24 Dec 2016, 09:31 |
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Joined: 01/28/13 Posts: 6347 Post Likes: +4441 Location: Indiana
Aircraft: C195, D17S, M20TN
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Missed is ILS 10 or as assigned. If I didn't like the missed I'd. Suggest negotiating something else before the CTL. See > A circle to land in IMC is how my IFR instructor caused me to make a mistake on the missed from the circle to land. Pop Quiz back. What minimums (altitude) were you descending to? ILS or CTL on the ILS? (CTL at night is not in my playbook unless I have normal TPA and vis 3+ to work with under the clouds.). Edit, Watched vid now. I didn't know conditions.  Glad it worked out. Was the wind blowing hard favoring 20? Username Protected wrote: Nicely done Mark. Why did you choose the ILS & circle over the RNAV direct to 20R? Looks like the minimums are close to the same for each. Do you find those CL lights distracting? They look really bright in the video. We requested the LPV to 20R but were denied due to KORD (O'Hare) traffic. I did not find the lights distracting. In fact it was hard to seem them until we made the turn. Had to study the airport layout so we knew exactly what we were looking for and how we would approach it. The problem is you mess it up (too high, too tight) etc you can biff it trying to save it. You also really have to know the missed approach. Pop quiz...what would be the missed? The miss for 10 or the miss for 20R and when does it become one and not the other?
_________________ Chuck KEVV
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 25 Dec 2016, 17:53 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 14668 Post Likes: +12455 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Flew the last trip with a recently retired FedEx Cap who also had 20 years as an Air Force pilot. I chose him because all my BT buddies are big talkers about flying jets but that's where it ends. Apparently they have lives (and wives) that don't allow them the freedom to do so ...rant off. We did 8 legs and 17 hours, 4 actual imc hours and 7 night hours over three days. He got paid $2k for his effort. Some things my SIC was amazed/delighted at: 1) dress code - jeans, shorts, hoodie. Just don't be naked if you aren't female and under 30  (JL's daughter OL being the exception) 2) I rented a car at Palm Beach - it was a Mercedes. He didn't even know you could rent a MB 3) We stayed at the Hilton and the Marriott on the executive floor. He was like a kid in a candy store. 4) we ate nice meals (ribeyes, seabass etc) at good restaurants. He was amazed at the gadgets...cameras, 796, GDL39D, iPad, Sat phone. Just blown away by all the tools at my finger tips. He just couldn't get over how fricking cool this gig is. Some things I noticed: He was a good pilot. He works at SIMCOM and is a typed 550 Captain. This, however, was his very first flight in an actual 550. He had none of the tools we 91 guys have no iPad, no Foreflight, No Garmin Pilot No charts etc. He wouldn't have been able to file a flight plan (did not have a clue re ICAO data). Doing a W&B and calculating performance data would have been a manual effort. Didn't really understand the notion of positive or negative prist. Fuel contracts were a total mystery. The idea that I do all this SP was more than he could fathom. The reality is why should he actually know how to do any of this? He has 40 years flying aircraft where all this stuff was done for him. Huge learning curve ahead for him. He will get there but it will take some time. He just texted me that Santa brought him an ipad so he has a start in the right direction. I love the flying experience of 121 guys but, unless they have flown 91, there is a limit to what they can do without some serious training. SIMCOM needs to pair 91 guys with 91 students IMO.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 29 Dec 2016, 16:34 |
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Joined: 08/15/11 Posts: 2622 Post Likes: +1229 Location: Mandan, ND
Aircraft: None currently
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Took a week to read through this entire thread . Pretty darn cool! Thanks for all the videos Mark! If you ever get to Bismarck (or the area) single pilot and want a right seater, give me a jingle. I fly only fly piston twins...not sure if I could adapt to turbine reliability.  Question for Mark...you doing all this flying for your company, or pilot services?
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