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26 Dec 2025, 03:38 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 06 Dec 2016, 14:00 
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 14668
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:
Oh I have been flying. Went to mammoth Mtn yesterday to ski. Got diverted from Scottsdale to Deer Valley due to a disabled AC on runway on return flight. . Flying the rocker to Spokane this weekend. Looking for a copilot. All my BTers talk a good SIC game but never deliver.


I will come up with some video soon.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/NHRxTaTlZ1s[/youtube]

skiing is good at KMMH

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Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 06 Dec 2016, 14:01 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:

Hey Mark,

Great thread. Good on you for admitting mistakes (that we have all made!) and helping us all learn from them.

One system that we use at my company as a "cleared to land" reminder is to move the Seatbelt Sign from AUTO (where it normally lives) to ON whenever we get the clearance. It has no effect on the signs themselves as they come on at 10,000 MSL in the descent in AUTO but its a great way to acknowledge the cleared to land call inside the cockpit. We also acknowledge the clearance when the EGPWS makes its "500" call. PM looks up at the Seatbelt sign and calls "Stable, Cleared to Land 18R". The PF calls "Landing". Not sure if there is a switch in the CII that could serve the same purpose but thought I'd mention it. Ive also heard of people turning their Landing Lts from Pulse to Steady when the receive the clearance to land.

just my 2c. Great thread.


Good thoughts. I will incorporate. :bud:

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Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2016, 00:34 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
ILS 10 circle to land 20R. Circle to land takes a lot of focus. Having an SIC helped.

Sorry the audio didn't take.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/DrLL8U4FswE[/youtube]

_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2016, 06:03 
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Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
Nicely done Mark. Why did you choose the ILS & circle over the RNAV direct to 20R? Looks like the minimums are close to the same for each. Do you find those CL lights distracting? They look really bright in the video.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2016, 07:29 
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Mark, Just curious; do you not keep the YD engaged during the circle? You mentioned "staying coordinated" in one of the video captions. I've always kept my feet flat on the floor in a jet until on final and then disconnect the YD on short final (unless I need the rudder earlier for wind correction.)

I've only flown one type of Citation and just wonder what the different training recommendations are for similar rigs.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2016, 08:52 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:
Nicely done Mark. Why did you choose the ILS & circle over the RNAV direct to 20R? Looks like the minimums are close to the same for each. Do you find those CL lights distracting? They look really bright in the video.


We requested the LPV to 20R but were denied due to KORD (O'Hare) traffic. I did not find the lights distracting. In fact it was hard to see them until we made the turn. Had to study the airport layout so we knew exactly what we were looking for and how we would approach it. The problem is you mess it up (too high, too tight) etc you can biff it trying to save it. You also really have to know the missed approach. Pop quiz...what would be the missed? The miss for 10 or the miss for 20R and when does it become one and not the other?

_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"


Last edited on 24 Dec 2016, 19:23, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2016, 08:54 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:
Mark, Just curious; do you not keep the YD engaged during the circle? You mentioned "staying coordinated" in one of the video captions. I've always kept my feet flat on the floor in a jet until on final and then disconnect the YD on short final (unless I need the rudder earlier for wind correction.)

I've only flown one type of Citation and just wonder what the different training recommendations are for similar rigs.


That's just a bad habit on my part. Once I commit to visual I like to "deautomate".
Your point is excellent and I should rethink my strategy/technique.

_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2016, 09:06 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Our pax returned at midnight. In the meantime it has snowed, sleeted and rained. We were in a heated hangar to protect the bird. When we boarded the weather was 200&1/2 in fog. It was way below forecast. Nearest VFR was 200 miles. Have I said how much I like flying jets? Our out was St Joe Missouri.

This is the 200 & 1/2 takeoff. Notice how short the transition is from VMC to IMC.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/X-4qO1wjBSE[/youtube]

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Mark Hangen
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Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2016, 09:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
Nicely done Mark. Why did you choose the ILS & circle over the RNAV direct to 20R? Looks like the minimums are close to the same for each. Do you find those CL lights distracting? They look really bright in the video.


We requested the LPV to 20R but were denied due to KORD (O'Hare) traffic. I did not find the lights distracting. In fact it was hard to seem them until we made the turn. Had to study the airport layout so we knew exactly what we were looking for and how we would approach it. The problem is you mess it up (too high, too tight) etc you can biff it trying to save it. You also really have to know the missed approach. Pop quiz...what would be the missed? The miss for 10 or the miss for 20R and when does it become one and not the other?


Unless I get a vector and alt from tower I would climb to 2600' while I went direct JOT, which is listed as the missed fix for both approaches.

I read some guidance that says climb to MSA above the airport. In that situation I would much prefer to be wings level.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2016, 09:25 
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Username Protected wrote:

Most new airliners have INS and GPS. Hard to get lost these days but people still do it!


Even older airliners incorporate GPS. In most installations I've seen, the INS(S) provide a baseline position (and attitude reference for the ADI). Since the INS position solution will drift with time, the GPS provides a "correction" to the original solution. This updated position is known as the FMS position. Some airplanes use VOR/DME and DME/DME to augment the FMS position when GPS becomes inop.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2016, 09:31 
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Missed is ILS 10 or as assigned. If I didn't like the missed I'd. Suggest negotiating something else before the CTL. See > A circle to land in IMC is how my IFR instructor caused me to make a mistake on the missed from the circle to land.

Pop Quiz back. What minimums (altitude) were you descending to? ILS or CTL on the ILS? (CTL at night is not in my playbook unless I have normal TPA and vis 3+ to work with under the clouds.).

Edit,
Watched vid now. I didn't know conditions. :eek: Glad it worked out. Was the wind blowing hard favoring 20?

Username Protected wrote:
Nicely done Mark. Why did you choose the ILS & circle over the RNAV direct to 20R? Looks like the minimums are close to the same for each. Do you find those CL lights distracting? They look really bright in the video.


We requested the LPV to 20R but were denied due to KORD (O'Hare) traffic. I did not find the lights distracting. In fact it was hard to seem them until we made the turn. Had to study the airport layout so we knew exactly what we were looking for and how we would approach it. The problem is you mess it up (too high, too tight) etc you can biff it trying to save it. You also really have to know the missed approach. Pop quiz...what would be the missed? The miss for 10 or the miss for 20R and when does it become one and not the other?

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2016, 10:05 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Our intention was to fly the 10 missed. It is convenient that they both go to JOT. I was attempting to stay either at TPA or just below the cloud bases.

Night CTL was the only option if you wanted to land at KDPA. I want to say winds were 8-12 knots. We could have landed on 10 though it wasn't offered. Our concern was a contaminated runway. All the plowing seem focused on 20R. ( I erronously said 20L in title).

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2016, 19:04 
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Wonder why runway lights don't have a flicker setting so they are easier to find. could be a click setting a la intensity. Some of the wind farms around here have red lights that click on and off in mass. U can pick them out from quite far away.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2016, 17:53 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Flew the last trip with a recently retired FedEx Cap who also had 20 years as an Air Force pilot. I chose him because all my BT buddies are big talkers about flying jets but that's where it ends. Apparently they have lives (and wives) that don't allow them the freedom to do so ...rant off.

We did 8 legs and 17 hours, 4 actual imc hours and 7 night hours over three days. He got paid $2k for his effort.

Some things my SIC was amazed/delighted at: 1) dress code - jeans, shorts, hoodie. Just don't be naked if you aren't female and under 30 :rofl: (JL's daughter OL being the exception) 2) I rented a car at Palm Beach - it was a Mercedes. He didn't even know you could rent a MB 3) We stayed at the Hilton and the Marriott on the executive floor. He was like a kid in a candy store. 4) we ate nice meals (ribeyes, seabass etc) at good restaurants. He was amazed at the gadgets...cameras, 796, GDL39D, iPad, Sat phone. Just blown away by all the tools at my finger tips. He just couldn't get over how fricking cool this gig is.

Some things I noticed: He was a good pilot. He works at SIMCOM and is a typed 550 Captain. This, however, was his very first flight in an actual 550. He had none of the tools we 91 guys have no iPad, no Foreflight, No Garmin Pilot No charts etc. He wouldn't have been able to file a flight plan (did not have a clue re ICAO data). Doing a W&B and calculating performance data would have been a manual effort. Didn't really understand the notion of positive or negative prist. Fuel contracts were a total mystery. The idea that I do all this SP was more than he could fathom.

The reality is why should he actually know how to do any of this? He has 40 years flying aircraft where all this stuff was done for him. Huge learning curve ahead for him. He will get there but it will take some time. He just texted me that Santa brought him an ipad so he has a start in the right direction.

I love the flying experience of 121 guys but, unless they have flown 91, there is a limit to what they can do without some serious training. SIMCOM needs to pair 91 guys with 91 students IMO.

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Mark Hangen
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Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2016, 16:34 
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Took a week to read through this entire thread . Pretty darn cool! Thanks for all the videos Mark!

If you ever get to Bismarck (or the area) single pilot and want a right seater, give me a jingle. I fly only fly piston twins...not sure if I could adapt to turbine reliability. ;)

Question for Mark...you doing all this flying for your company, or pilot services?


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