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04 Dec 2025, 10:33 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 15:11 
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There can be nasty retaliation and negative things done against you.
Mike C.

This got me thinking. This summer after we checked out of our hotel my card was charged $250 and after a lot of runaround I was informed it was to cover a broken shower glass panel. The manager even sent pictures of the destroyed shower. No way we did that. Even though no hotel staff hinted for a tip during our stay (service was pretty lousy anyway), I wonder if the staff expected us to leave a tip and broke the shower when they didn't find one?

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 15:29 
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Go figure. I'll never find out for myself, as I cannot imagine going on a cruise.

I'm with you on that. Maybe if they had a cruise ship with an aircraft carrier deck, we could fly in, stay for a night or two, then depart.


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 15:32 
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Go figure. I'll never find out for myself, as I cannot imagine going on a cruise.

I'm with you on that. Maybe if they had a cruise ship with an aircraft carrier deck, we could fly in, stay for a night or two, then depart.



That would work.

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 15:47 
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Mike, like you I'm somewhat of a rationalist-idealist. Tipping seems like an economic "distortion" and a form of corruption. The rich restaurant patron heavily tips the waiter and the waiter, who cannot be everywhere at once, pays more attention to the rich patron and less to the poorer patrons.

It rubs me the wrong way and when I'm in America I avoid eating at restaurants as much as possible.

To be sure, I'm sympathetic towards those who are working their butts off for low wages+tips, but as you have mentioned the solution is to pay higher wages. Tips do not have to enter into the equation.


What you have is what is done for virtually everything. One pays more to get more, sometimes "more" is perceived. People pay more for better seats in stadiums and theaters. Why not pay more for better service?

Plus your comparison falls apart in restaurants. How many poor patrons are dining at high-end restaurants? Unless they are regulars, how does the staff know if they tip better or not? Many years ago I used to throw darts at a local bar. I tipped very well. The staff knew me. I didn't even have to order, my favorite drink would just show up shortly after I arrived. I tipped well and got excellent service for it.

I enjoy eating out in Europe when we are there, at least I love the food, but the service typically pales in comparison to that in the US; my personal perspective, YMMV. In the US the waiter/waitress will swing by and refill water or ask if we want another drink if our wine glass is empty or near empty. In Europe I have to find someone to get another drink or glass of wine, stopping our conversation to do so.

Could be the differences in expectations among Europeans versus Americans. Or it could be the waitress/waiter in the US knows that they are working for the patrons as much as they are, if not more, for the restaurant owner. The best know how to keep the balance of being there to help and not pestering by stopping by too much. In Europe too many of the waitstaff just seem to find the patrons an annoyance, like it would be much easier if they didn't have customers.

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 16:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
Mike, like you I'm somewhat of a rationalist-idealist. Tipping seems like an economic "distortion" and a form of corruption. The rich restaurant patron heavily tips the waiter and the waiter, who cannot be everywhere at once, pays more attention to the rich patron and less to the poorer patrons.

It rubs me the wrong way and when I'm in America I avoid eating at restaurants as much as possible.

To be sure, I'm sympathetic towards those who are working their butts off for low wages+tips, but as you have mentioned the solution is to pay higher wages. Tips do not have to enter into the equation.


What you have is what is done for virtually everything. One pays more to get more, sometimes "more" is perceived. People pay more for better seats in stadiums and theaters. Why not pay more for better service?

Plus your comparison falls apart in restaurants. How many poor patrons are dining at high-end restaurants? Unless they are regulars, how does the staff know if they tip better or not? Many years ago I used to throw darts at a local bar. I tipped very well. The staff knew me. I didn't even have to order, my favorite drink would just show up shortly after I arrived. I tipped well and got excellent service for it.

I enjoy eating out in Europe when we are there, at least I love the food, but the service typically pales in comparison to that in the US; my personal perspective, YMMV. In the US the waiter/waitress will swing by and refill water or ask if we want another drink if our wine glass is empty or near empty. In Europe I have to find someone to get another drink or glass of wine, stopping our conversation to do so.

Could be the differences in expectations among Europeans versus Americans. Or it could be the waitress/waiter in the US knows that they are working for the patrons as much as they are, if not more, for the restaurant owner. The best know how to keep the balance of being there to help and not pestering by stopping by too much. In Europe too many of the waitstaff just seem to find the patrons an annoyance, like it would be much easier if they didn't have customers.

I remember one time in Holland I tried to order a "customised" salad by requesting some avocado slices on top. The response was something like "The chef does not appreciate being told how to do his job. If you want avocado, there is this very nice other salad with avocado on it." Aye, aye, captain!

As for paying for a better class of service. Ok, fine. I can pay more and get my passport "express" renewed. But the distinction is that I pay the government (i.e. the employer) the extra money, not the employee. If we have to start giving the government workers tips to get our passports processed in a timely manner, I think there is a certain word for that starting with the letter "b"?

I suppose what really gets me about tipping is the unpredictability, capriciousness, and awkwardness of it. If instead I know ahead of time that a 20% service charge will be added to the bill, that seems more palatable.

As far as more and more types of workers seeking tips (and in some cases using guilt trips and even implied threats), I suppose this is a result of a desperate economic situation. Workers are not able to squeeze more wages from their employers, so they seek other avenues.

If we keep going at this rate we might well end up like a third world country where you have to bribe everyone to get anything done.
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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 16:25 
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Some of you guys should just eat at home or learn to cook


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 16:33 
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I don't like services charges being automatically added to the check.
IMO it removes incentive form the server to give quality service.
The last thing I want is (Massachusetts) DMV service at restaurants.

Phil


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 16:35 
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please don't use averages. In general they are a bad metric for a whole host of math reasons.

Username Protected wrote:
I do have an idea on what could be an interesting and new approach for regular “sit down and dine" restaurants

Step 1: increase food prices by 15-20% and ban tipping

Step 2: place a two question survey on every receipt; Quality of food 1-5, Quality of service 1-5.

Step 3: pay out waitstaff and kitchen staff based on their average scores. An average above 4.5 is worth maximum bonus. An average below 1.5 is no bonus.

Step 4: These scores would also appear on pay stubs as “last pay period" and “average". (Average should also indicate denominator of the average calculation)

This system would provide valuable feedback to the owner/manager of the esaltablishment.

The idea is the full additional food charge is paid out when someone consistently scores above 4.5. However, it will also call out bad servers in a manner currently not available. It would also de-couple bad food from stellar service (and vice versa)

The score on the pay stub would allow good cooks and servers to “move up" or “move on" to better or new establishments.

I am sure there are more flaws to this system than I am aware, but these issues come to mind.

Flaw 1: not paying taxes on cash tips is a “benefit” to servers that would be lost.

Flaw 2: any system can be gamed/cheated. Not sure how to police waitstaff who score themselves, nor how to catch owners/managers who manipulate the actual scores. I imagine some app or sms based system would help, but, again, anything can be gamed/cheated.

Flaw 3: human nature (as evidenced by ratings on Uber and Lyft) is to score 1 or 5. One would want to be clear that a “3” is an average/acceptable score.

Flaw 4: Lost business due to perceived higher prices.

(Full disclosure: I waited tables briefly in my early 20s. I was horrible. This is nothing but an interesting thought experiment)


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 16:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don't like services charges being automatically added to the check.
IMO it removes incentive form the server to give quality service.
The last thing I want is (Massachusetts) DMV service at restaurants.

Phil

Well I think we know a way to improve the service at MA DMV!

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 16:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
You beat me to it, Jim. I was thinking about the same concept. Kind of like "liquidated damages" for sub-par service.


Thx.

I typed this scheme up maybe 7 years ago. Just went and found it to copy and paste here.

Just some random thinking about another way to approach things.

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 17:28 
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Very entertaining thread drift.

It’s right up there with the time we were discussing caramel recipes in a thread about the real estate market!

:)


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 19:18 
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Thread drift is a part of BT life. :shrug:

I hope we/I don't stray too far from the subject. It is a relevant one.

Jg

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 21:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
I also tip our building’s Conciegere, I tip line guys, shuttle bus drivers, etc.,
I'm wealthy, you are servant class.

Mike C.


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 21:58 
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Welcome to the inter-webz. Come in a stay a spell. The water is fine!


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2021, 22:51 
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When TF are we going to talk about hot latin chics? WTF? Tipping? Tip the line staff you cheap F's


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